Second Language Acquisition = First Language Declination

[muyongshi]

I'm curious how everyone's language study including their environment has effected their first language. Thought it would be an interesting topic and let's make it as detailed as possible because those that study with Koreans vs. Americans are going to to have a different result as well as how often they speak their native language.

For me:

My vocabulary has dropped dramatically (and I used a lot of words before) as well as I get confused what proper English grammar is!

I study in a school with only 4-5 other foreigners and many times there is a day or two where I don't even speak my native language except to myself (I live alone). Usually talk on IM once a day for a couple minutes with someone state side and I also listen to about 1.5 hours of news/talk show broadcast in English. Other than that all my friends don't speak English (Chinese friends) and I use Chinese probably about 3 times more than English.

[simonlaing]

Hi Muyongshi,

Ocassionally I find myself interspersing Chinese words into my english with other westerners who I know have some chinese skills. Ideas like Guanxi, Mianzi, laibuji,

Sometimes are better said with Chinese. Also occasionally I catch my self using weird prepositional structures from CHinese or leaving my sentences vague. I don't know if that is the Chinese influence or I am just getting lazier when I talk to people who almost know what I am going to say as things are fairly regular here.

Have fun,

SimoN:)

[DrZero]

I don't think it's likely one's native language will suffer any real, lasting decline. I occasionally do find myself making little mistakes like my wife, like saying she when I mean he. Sounds funny, but it's true.

Though my Chinese level is not overly high, there are times when I just say something in Chinese to her rather than English because it is easier. As in, the sentence is shorter, or there aren't as many consanants, or the idea just comes out a little more efficienty in Chinese. A perfect example is, when someone tries to give you food or something you don't want, it's easier to say "bu yao" than "oh, no thanks, I don't want any right now."

[Marceau]

What about us European folk? I'm studying Chinese as my 6th or 7th language. What does 6th language acquisition say about the decline of one's first five languages.

Sorry for that... it's late, I feel a little 臭美, but I've always found this to be a great divide between native English speakers and the rest of the world.

[muyongshi]

What about us European folk... I'm studying Chinese as, like, number 6 or 7. What does that say about the decline of my first... five languages.

Well I can't speak from personal experience so I hope you will enlighten me as to how learning a language effects all the others, specifically those that were learned as and adult versus learned as a child.

I envy your language knowledge. Languages are not easy for me and I feel robbed of a certain experience by not having grown up multi-lingual.

My point is that due to environment I see a drop in grammar correctness (heck just look at what I just typed) and in vocabulary.

I think there is a relationship but not sure as to what degree.

As to the second part of your post I am not sure what you mean...

[HashiriKata]

不要着急！All decline will be very temporary. If you're in a natural environment for speaking whatever language you used to speak and to the kind of people you used to speak to, you'll get back to full speed after...5 minutes.

[muyongshi]

you'll get back to full speed after...5 minutes.

Wow. Pretty exact. Scientifically came up with that number huh?

I have seen decline that is very obvious but my thing is I haven't been back in a fully natural environment for over a year (the entire course of my intensive studying).

I'll see what happens this summer after I go to my friends wedding.

[Marceau]

As to the second part of your post I am not sure what you mean...

What I mean is, it seems that native English speakers have a different attitude to foreign languages. Some such folk seem to be unable to wrap their brain around the need for or use of learning any other language at all, and of course, up to a point, they are right. Their countries are often big enough to never be left in a lifetime. For those who do dare to venture outside their own borders, there are billions of people studying English right this minute in the hopes of one day accommodating them.

Still, a big consequence of this is that children from anglophone countries don't need to or don't want to study languages, and in many cases they don't have to. What follows is that their language acquisition skills are not developed. Later in life, acquiring a second language becomes a herculean effort, and even then, their effort is likely to only pay off moderately.

I've met people who've lived in China 5 and 10 years and couldn't say more than 谢谢. All of them native English speakers.

On the other hand, people from small language groups are forced to learn, from a young age, many languages. I myself had had multiple year obligatory courses in Dutch, French, English, German and Latin (if I may count that last one) before I reached the age of eighteen. All the while studying all the other things that people everywhere else also have to endure.

Bah. Too late now. 下一次在说吧。

[muyongshi]

I really agree with you and I think your take is right on. I will not argue one thing because you are simply right and I've said that for years. I have even pushed my state education board to require elementary second language learning but that's a different story...

I've met people who've lived in China 5 and 10 years and couldn't say more than 谢谢. All of them native English speakers.

我最讨厌这种人。

[david1978]

This topic hits home for me because my first language is Hebrew. I learned English in High School and perfected it when I moved to the states for college. I'm proud to say that I think I write and speak better than many native speakers! Having said that, my Hebrew has definitely taken a hit. I can still speak Hebrew with ease, of course, but there is no way I could write a thesis paper in Hebrew. Anyway, no matter how much my Chinese improves, I will make sure my English skills never decline, but always improve, because the U.S. will always be where I make my bread.

[imron]

you'll get back to full speed after...5 minutes.

Wow. Pretty exact. Scientifically came up with that number huh?

I believe it's based on the highly scientific principle of exaggeration, a powerful device that when coupled with a smiley face ":D " (as in HK's initial post) implies that the number shouldn't be taken so literally. HashiriKata is right. You might suffer a temporary decline in language ability, but you get back to speed pretty fast[*] when in the correct environment.

[*] another highly scientific term, specifying a range of time anywhere between 5 mintues and a long time.

[anonymoose]

I've met people who've lived in China 5 and 10 years and couldn't say more than 谢谢. All of them native English speakers.

I don't think it's restricted to native English speakers. It's just that there are more native English speakers in China than native speakers of other languages.

下一次在说吧。

I think you mean 下一次再说吧。

[furyou_gaijin]

Many years ago I came across a study of language acquisition / deterioration of Russian (Jewish) immigrants in the US. The study made the point that highly educated people with excellent command of their native language to start with managed to retain it succesfully after many years in the English language environment. Those who started off with a rather limited vocabulary in their native language lost it very quickly without truly gaining good command of English. There seemed to be a distinct correlation of the education level / command of the native language to the degree of its deterioration in a foreign language environment. This seems to be a general rule across all cultures / languages...

[david1978]

Furyou_gaijin, I find that study highly suspect because Jewish Russian immigrants never assimilate into an English speaking environment. Even their children, who are born in the states, and attend public schools, are raised in Russian homes, with Russian satellite TV, and Russian as their first language. In other words, they never even attempt to learn English. I should know, I lived for a few years in a Russian enclave of NYC. If I didn't know any better, I would think I lived in a Russia as even the storefronts are in Russian.

[Shadowdh]

I am a native English speaker and spent 7 weeks in China last summer on a short course, I have dabbled in Latin, German, Spanish, French and Japanese (which is to say I learned very little) and could hold a conversation in Russian a few years ago (before taking on Chinese Full time)... I find that I can pick up the basics of language fairly easily (in fact I make it a point of learning the niceties at least when travelling to a non english speaking country) however at the level and depth I am learning Chinese there is a noticeable difference in level and depth of my knowledge and understanding of Chinese when compared to the others I have learned (with perhaps the exception of Russian)... which I guess is a given... anywho that is just a bit of background...

I found that by the fourth week of being in China and despite the fact that I did hang out with a few english speakers some of the time I did indeed have trouble with the occasional word or two, mainly forgetting what the english was and having to say what I wanted in Chinese... but once back in the UK (and after a somewhat embarrassing encounter at the ticket office for the tube where I asked for a ticket in Chinese) I found no difficulty dropping back into english... although it did feel weird using a knife and fork for a bit...

[muyongshi]

I don't think it's restricted to native English speakers. It's just that there are more native English speakers in China than native speakers of other languages.

I have to say all the ones I've met are native English speakers but I would never assume it's just limited to them. For me it's I won't know their language so I can't find out more.

I believe it's based on the highly scientific principle of exaggeration, a powerful device that when coupled with a smiley face " " (as in HK's initial post) implies that the number shouldn't be taken so literally. HashiriKata is right. You might suffer a temporary decline in language ability, but you get back to speed pretty fast[*] when in the correct environment.

Very highly scientific. I believe this method was created by Harry Exaggerate, a very brilliant man.

I really thought all sarcasm, exaggeration, and all other forms of satire, etc were meant to be taken literally.

I am a native English speaker and spent 7 weeks in China last summer on a short course, I have dabbled in Latin, German, Spanish, French and Japanese (which is to say I learned very little) and could hold a conversation in Russian a few years ago (before taking on Chinese Full time)... I find that I can pick up the basics of language fairly easily

I must say I envy you and I do believe that non exposure to other langauges hinders your ability later in life to acquire new ones. And this has been shown by many studies. Alas I am doomed to be merely bilingual for the rest of my life (that is once I get Chinese down).

and after a somewhat embarrassing encounter at the ticket office for the tube where I asked for a ticket in Chinese

I already know something like this will happen. I'll let you know what it turns out to be and we can all 嘲笑 me together.

[david1978]

Anglophones have the advantage of speaking the most widely used language in the world. Any educated person on earth can speak English. Therefore, Anglophones are privileged in the sense that they can live practically anywhere without learning the language of the land. For this reason English speakers disproportionately fall into the "I've lived in China for 5 years and can only say xie xie" group. But it has nothing to do with them being dumber or lazier than others, if that's what was intimated.

[anonymoose]

I guess everyone has a different story to tell, and my anecdotal evidence is just another piece of trivia that doesn't prove anything, but over the last 6 months I have come in contact with Chinese residents from Russia, Belorussia, Turkey, Germany, Philippines as well as Canada, the USA and the UK, and whilst all have reasonable English, not one can speak Chinese. The only one who is making any serious attempt at learning is a guy from the UK. So whilst I don't disagree that in general native English speakers are less inclined to learn foreign languages, I don't really think this extends to Chinese which most foreigners who do learn do so out of interest rather than because it is expected of them as part of their education.

[Marceau]

But it has nothing to do with them being dumber or lazier than others, if that's what was intimated.

Well, it doesn't. It has to do with pervading cultural attitudes and an education system that doesn't stress the importance of foreign language acquisition nearly enough.

Any educated person on earth can speak English.

What? Sorry to be asking this, but have you ever been to China? At least where I'm at (济南), you'll find very very little English spoken outside of any reasonably sized college campus, and even inside these campuses, you'll find countless legions of people who couldn't help you if their life depended on it.

These long-term residents are often find calling on their students or school-provided handlers for whatever little thing they need. Be it hemorrhoid cream or pork chops, or something that perhaps might sound less sarcastic.

And, oh,

[Marceau]

The only one who is making any serious attempt at learning is a guy from the UK.

I'll be the first one to admit that there are many native English speakers who would beat the pants off of me in an all-out Chinese language showdown. There are no hard-and-fast rules in foreign language acquisition, only (vague?) trends.

After all, isn't Da Shan Canadian?