Boxer Rebellion (义和团之乱)

[muyongshi]

By the way, 東南互保章程 is quite a well-known watershed event

Yes, I am quite familiar with the event actually. I'm not saying that the governments didn't offer protection etc. What I am trying to point out is the multiple levels of intricacy that were going on at this time. We've all seen treaties and other documents signed before in modern times and then see these very contradictory events going on at the same time. That is merely my point. There is so much more to this than meets the eye.

[studentyoung]

On Jun. 26. 2007, at 09:22 AM, Ian_Lee said:

When the ROC was established, those founders, i.e. Sun Yat Sen, didn't have any sympathy towards these country bumpkins even though they all resented the Allied Army's occupation of Beijing.

On Jun.26. 2007, at 05:31 PM, Ian_Lee said:

Who ever said Sun Yat Sun was antagonistic towards the Boxers? Sun just pitied them.

I'm confused.

Thanks!

[muyongshi]

话有自相矛盾吧。

[Ian_Lee]

Actually there is recent news about the late Qing official 張之洞 who had cracked down hard on the Boxers.

19世紀的洋務運動先驅、提出「中學為本，西學為用」的晚清重臣張之洞，其遺骸在 1966年文革中被紅衛兵挖出棄置荒野， 41年後，遺骨終於被找到，並暫存於其祖籍的河北省南皮縣烈士陵園，預定今年 10月 4日張之洞忌日重建墳墓時歸葬。

Zhang's grave was dug up by the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution in 1966 and his bone remnants were scattered in the wilderness. After 41 years, his bone remnants were finally found. They are now temporarily deposited in the Martyr Mausoleum in his hometown in Hebei province. They will be put back in the newly reconstructed grave on his death anniversary -- Oct 4.

Zhang, who had killed many Boxers, is regarded by PRC as a martyr! Really ironic! History being rewritten again in Mainland China.

Maybe someday Chiang Kai Shek will be also a martyr as regarded by CCP!

[muyongshi]

Thanks for that tid bit. Very interesting!

[againstwind]

Needn't have such intense reaction.

並暫存於其祖籍的河北省南皮縣烈士陵園，預定今年 10月 4日張之洞忌日重建墳墓時歸葬。

“暂存”而已。

However, it seems that the authorities are modifying (at least, are attempting to do so) their past improper deeds for treating some historical persons and events. Anyway, it's a good signal.

Maybe someday Chiang Kai Shek will be also a martyr as regarded by CCP!

Maybe, though I prefer in name of a "patriotic politician". He is much better than some narrow politicians nowadays.

[studentyoung]

41年後，遺骨終於被找到，並暫存於其祖籍的河北省南皮縣烈士陵園，預定今年 10月 4日張之洞忌日重建墳墓時歸葬。

Zhang, who had killed many Boxers, is regarded by PRC as a martyr! Really ironic! History being rewritten again in Mainland China.

Your imagination is amazing, Ian_Lee. Can you offer more materials to support your point “Zhang, who had killed many Boxers, is regarded by PRC as a martyr!”

1895年初，日军进犯山东半岛，张之洞给山东巡抚立秉衡发急电，建议李"责成地方官多募民夫，迅速星夜多开壕堑，于要路多埋火药，作地雷"，以阻止日军进犯。并表示拟拨枪支弹药支援山东守军。在丁汝昌自杀殉国后，他曾建议将驻扎台湾的刘永福调来山东抗日，保卫烟台。当张之洞得悉清廷有割台海于日之说，于2月28日致电朝廷，沥陈利害，极力反对割台。并提出保台的“权宜救急之法”有二：一、向英国借巨款，“以台湾作保”，英必以军舰保卫台湾；二、除借巨款外，“许英在台湾开矿一、二十年”，对英有大益，必肯保台。3月29日，张之洞致电唐景崧，一方面鼓励御倭；一方面建议起用百战之将刘永福，同时致电刘永福，建议他“忍小任大，和衷共济，建立奇功”。《马关条约》签订后，张之洞于4月26日向清廷上奏，提出废约办法“惟有乞援强国一策”。5月20日，清廷谕令唐景崧“着即开缺，来京陛见。其台省大小文武各员，并著唐景崧 令陆续内渡”。张之洞认为“此时为台之计，只有凭台民为战守，早遣无用客勇，以免耗饷，禁运银钱内渡，以充军实”。24日，张之洞从唐景崧来电中得悉“日内台民即立为民主国”之事，27日上奏，认为台湾“现自改为民主之国，以后筹械等事，自未便再为接济，以免枝节”。6月3日，日军攻陷基隆港。5日，张之洞仍致电唐景崧，希望他激励士勇民众坚守台北府，并鼓励唐“自率大支亲兵，获饷械，择便利驻扎，或战、或攻、或守，相机因应，务取活便，方能得势。”可是唐景崧辜负了台湾人民的期望，7日乘船退回厦门。最后只剩刘永福在台湾领导军民坚持抵抗日本侵略军。但是“饷械奇绌”，多次向张之洞求援，张之洞虽有饷械，却不敢接济，10月19日，刘永福战败，退归厦门。

1898年，张之洞作《劝学篇》反对变法改革。1900年，八国联军进攻北京时，张之洞参与"东南互保"，镇压两湖群众斗争，并镇压唐才常自立军起义。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%D5%C5%3B%D6%AE%3B%B6%B4%2C%C1%F5%3B%D3%C0%B8%A3&url=http%3A//baike%2Ebaidu%2Ecom/view/21608%2Ehtm&p=87769a4699dd11a058efc6385308&user=baidu

So far, Zhang has not been regarded as martyr by PRC.

Thanks!

[Ian_Lee]

Studentyoung:

Congratulation! You really excel in 詭辯 that no other posters can match!

CCP allows the bone remnants of Zhang to be deposited in the Martyr's Mausoleum and you still claim that Zhang is not regarded as a martyr. Yea! 白馬非馬!

[studentyoung]

Congratulation! You really excel in 詭辯 that no other posters can match!

First of all, I don’t excel in sophistry that no other posters can match. It is you that label诡辩 on my words that no other posters can match!

CCP allows the bone remnants of Zhang to be deposited in the Martyr's Mausoleum and you still claim that Zhang is not regarded as a martyr.

Read your words again, please. I wonder if just you want to say Zheng is regarded as a martyr because his bone remnants deposited in the Martyr’s Mausoleum ?

On Jun.28. 2007, at 02:33 AM, Ian_Lee said:

Zhang's grave was dug up by the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution in 1966 and his bone remnants were scattered in the wilderness. After 41 years, his bone remnants were finally found. They are now temporarily deposited in the Martyr Mausoleum in his hometown in Hebei province. They will be put back in the newly reconstructed grave on his death anniversary -- Oct 4.

What’ more, I think you have little knowledge on the review procedure to admit someone posthumously as a martyr.

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%D7%B7%C8%CF%3B%C1%D2%CA%BF%3B%B5%C4%3B%B3%CC%D0%F2&url=http%3A//www%2Edajoo%2Ecom/tzdz/tzzw/showinfo%2Easpx%3Finfoid%3Deb0351bd%2D561d%2D456c%2D8897%2D78e124a8b32f&p=b449c64ad6c01eff57ed973d59578a&user=baidu

追认革命烈士的审核程序

Yea! 白馬非馬!

I wonder if you mean that if one day your bone remnants had to be temporarily deposited in the Arlington National Cemetery, you would be regarded as General of the Army, like Dwightd David Eisenhower or Douglas MacArthur? 白马非马？！Hehe, it is just the right word to describe what you have done!

Thanks!

[xichg]

I think his bone is put in that place just because there is no other better place to put it. Think about it, there are not so many facilities to put the bones from 19th century and not many people would volunteer to have the bones store in their homes. The mere fact that his bone is there doesn't mean he is regarded as a marter now.

However when I studied in middle school and high school(early 1990s), in the Chinese history books 张zhang zhidong was depicted as a reformer and i don't remember any bad words about him. The book didn't lavish praise on him but he was definitely not put in a negative light.

And he is from Hebei, which defines him as a northerner, contrary to Ian_lee's claim that he is a southern and that's why he held deep contempt on the 'illiterate bumpkins from Shandong and Hebei. And i suppose that the literacy rate should not be that different between Shandong and Guangdong at that time. Most Cantonese people at that time would also fall in the catagory of 'illiterate bumpkins' according to Ian_lee's criteria.

And the vast majority of CCP founders are southerners. There should be no argument over this fact. I feel that regionalism is not relevant in how people perceived the Boxer Rebellion. You should not let regionalism blind your eyes here too, Ian_lee.