Can Westerners become fluent in Chinese?

[OneEye]

Taiwan may be a special case but there think are definitely places in southern China where people's 方言 doesn't include the zh/ch/sh sounds and therefore, because their language doesn't include it, they don't use them when they speak Standard Chinese, they just use the z/c/s sounds which their 方言 does provide.

Then that isn't "Standard Chinese," is it? It's decidedly non-standard.

Not sure where you found that 台語 has 'ch' (meaning the retroflex 'ch' in the mainland standard, right?), but that isn't the case. Even if it was, I can assure you that the vast majority of Taiwanese people don't care the first bit about "Standard Chinese" as defined by the PRC government, nor do they really have any clue what that standard entails. They have a bit better idea about the Taiwan standard, but even then it's a fuzzy one at best. Nobody speaks the Taiwan standard, not even newscasters. It's an outdated fossil from the 蔣氏王朝 (as one of my more green-leaning teachers calls the 蔣介石 era) that's only ever heard in classes for foreigners.

In my experience, there are two erroneous ideas that many people here have about what "standard" sounds like. For some, it's the speech of educated native Mandarin speakers (usually from Taipei). This is a nice, clear, but still distinctly Taiwanese (not 台語, but "from Taiwan") Mandarin, which is described briefly here (the 'acrolectal' part). I think 蔡淑臻 (the main character in this show) has a really nice-sounding accent, to give an example.

another example, this one a well-known news anchor here. Here are some examples of what the Taiwan standard sounds like (the latter is from the PAVC series used in most language centers in Taiwan).

renzhe, I never said that people aspire to the standard because it's artificial. That would be absurd. I was saying that I personally prefer a clear, natural accent over a practiced standard that nobody speaks natively. I'm living in Taiwan, and so my goal is to sound like an educated native Mandarin speaker from Taiwan. I don't want to sound like a mainland news anchor, or an MTC teacher, or a native speaker of 台語. And I absolutely do not advocate adhering to the Taiwan standard, because of the reasons I mentioned above.

I thought "pronunciation typically consistent with that of well-educated native speakers of a non-stigmatized dialect" would very obviously not include heavily 方言-influenced Mandarin. I personally don't care much what the standard may be, but what I do care about is sounding like a "well-educated native speaker," which (in Taiwan at least) is a very different thing.

Interestingly, some words are pronounced differently in real life than what the standard says they should be. One example is 邂逅, which according to the MOE dictionary should be xièhòu, but is pronounced by most people as xiègòu. In fact, if you say xièhòu in Taiwan, you might not be understood. Another is 諷刺, which is pronounced by most people as fěngcì, while the standard is fèngcì. It's frustrating, because it means that if you want to sound authentic you have to ask a Taiwanese person rather than relying on a dictionary, but on the other hand it makes you pay a lot more attention to how people say things.

[renzhe]

My point is that it makes sense to learn a pronunciation which:

- will make you understood everywhere

- will help you understand the majority of materials (written, spoken, recorded)

- is considered "neutral"

- is more likely to make people respect you instead of looking down on you

If an artificial standard accomplishes this (and it does in many languages), then it's a good thing to learn. You argue that in Taiwan, educated native speech from Taipei accomplishes this better than anything else, and you're probably right. I'd say that in mainland China, that standard is Putonghua.

I'd also argue that either of these two will be intelligible on both sides of the strait, whereas the authentic speech of Wuhan or some parts of southern Taiwan won't

[gato]

example is 邂逅, which according to the MOE dictionary should be xièhòu, but is pronounced by most people as xiègòu. In fact, if you say xièhòu in Taiwan, you might not be understood.

You mean as part of a literary idiom like 邂逅相遇? Since 邂逅 is classical Chinese, does it come up in conversation other than as part of a literary idiom?

[gato]

Sounds like there is no disagreement. In Taiwan, the standard to learn is the educated accent used in Taipei. In mainland, the standard to learn is the educated accent used in major cities like Beijing and Shanghai (by those who are 40 years old or younger).

[Lu]

Sounds like there is no disagreement. In Taiwan, the standard to learn is the educated accent used in Taipei. In mainland, the standard to learn is the educated accent used in major cities like Beijing and Shanghai (by those who are 40 years old or younger).

...and both would be "consistent with that of well-educated native speakers of a non-stigmatized dialect".

[Guest realmayo]

Taiwan may be a special case but there think are definitely places in southern China where people's 方言 doesn't include the zh/ch/sh sounds and therefore, because their language doesn't include it, they don't use them when they speak Standard Chinese, they just use the z/c/s sounds which their 方言 does provide.

Then that isn't "Standard Chinese," is it? It's decidedly non-standard.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant "trying to speak" Standard Chinese rather than their 方言. Think of all those French or German speakers who don't pronounce "th" in English well.

[skylee]

Since 邂逅 is classical Chinese, does it come up in conversation other than as part of a literary idiom?

邂逅 is used a lot in songs and sentimental stuff, nothing classical about it.

[anonymoose]

I have to agree with Renzhe that most young mainland speakers, at least those that have been through the education system, speak something very similar to the broadcast standard. Yes, there are minor differences, for example Shanghainese speakers might not clearly distinguish n from ng, but the overall sound is still close enough to the standard that one might not notice the difference without paying special attention.

[OneEye]

OneEye doesn't notice this in Taiwan, of course, but people do speak like that.

Sure I do, why would you make that assumption? We get plenty of mainland tourists here, and even some students in the universities are mainlanders. I hear 兒化 in daily conversation fairly frequently. I understand perfectly well that it's a natural part of some people's speech. I'm not saying that learners should or shouldn't speak like that. I'm simply advocating picking a natural (and preferably fairly neutral) dialect, and aiming to sound like an eloquent, well-educated speaker of that dialect, rather than sticking to the standard. It just sounds more authentic.

But I did say at the outset that it "may be my Taiwan showing." Maybe in China, textbook 普通話 is also an authentic, natural dialect somewhere, who knows. Here, if you stick to the Taiwan standard, people tend to assume you must have learned in China before moving here.

You mean as part of a literary idiom like 邂逅相遇? Since 邂逅 is classical Chinese, does it come up in conversation other than as part of a literary idiom?

Well, it may not come up in casual conversation, but I've heard it used in speeches and lectures before (“這是本人和某某事情的初次邂逅(gòu)”). I wouldn't call it "classical Chinese," maybe formal Chinese.

Sounds like there is no disagreement. In Taiwan, the standard to learn is the educated accent used in Taipei. In mainland, the standard to learn is the educated accent used in major cities like Beijing and Shanghai (by those who are 40 years old or younger)

This, exactly. I wonder though, do the speakers from Beijing and Shanghai have discernible accents? Or are they indistinguishable from each other (and presumably, standard 普通話)?

[Guest realmayo]

Even if it was, I can assure you that the vast majority of Taiwanese people don't care the first bit about "Standard Chinese" as defined by the PRC government, nor do they really have any clue what that standard entails. They have a bit better idea about the Taiwan standard, but even then it's a fuzzy one at best. Nobody speaks the Taiwan standard,

I think you're being a bit defensive here. Too many of these terms are not only interchangeable but also loaded. I wasn't referring exclusively to the PRC Standard Chinese. I'm sure I've seen a reference to non-standard Standard Chinese before.....

In my experience, there are two erroneous ideas that many people here have about what "standard" sounds like.

What are these two errors? Not being sarky, I'm genuinely curious and unless I've misunderstood your post you don't mention them. I thought the people on your links were speaking a version of Mandarin that is closer to the Beijing standard than to what I normally associate with Taiwan people on TV.

Do you basically mean that, every reference you make to "standard", is a reference to a type of language not really spoken by most people in Taiwan? In that case you need to nominate a word that describes the type of language that most people do speak. Whatever word that is, if I was learning Chinese in Taiwan it's certainly the one I'd go for.

"pronunciation typically consistent with that of well-educated native speakers of a non-stigmatized dialect"

This description fails: for mainland China it includes 普通话 and （currently) 广东话！

[Guest realmayo]

I wonder though, do the speakers from Beijing and Shanghai have discernible accents? Or are they indistinguishable from each other (and presumably, standard 普通話)?

Excellent question.

[renzhe]

It's a tricky question, though, because the Beijing dialect itself is becoming a bit of a prestige dialect IMHO, and is prevalent in the media in addition to the standard. So Beijingers will often speak like Beijingers, and it's a bit of a special case.

It might make more sense if you compared the putonghua of a well-educated Shanghainese with that of someone from, say, Xi'an or Shenzhen.

I'm simply advocating picking a natural dialect

Why should it be natural?

I'd go for most widely accepted and most widely understood.

Personally, I doubt that a European speaking with a Beijing accent will come across as more "authentic" than if he speaks with putonghua. I imagine that it might even come across as less authentic.

[Guest realmayo]

I'd go for most widely accepted and most widely understood.

Surely renzhe the operative phrase should be "all else being equal". So, all else being equal, I would learn textbook Mandarin. But if I lived in Taiwan, then things are not equal. You have to weigh up the pros and cons. The cons of speaking how most people in Taiwan speak are what? That some mainlanders won't be able to understand you? Or will strain to understand you? Not much I'd say. The pros are what? Well, you're aiming to speak the same as everyone around you. Big advantage.

So for Taiwan, to me it makes sense to learn what Taiwan people speak.

For, say, Wuhan, although there are advantages of learning Wuhanhua instead of Putonghua, these are massively outweighed by the negatives.

For some little village in Jiangsu where they speak a dialect incomprehensible to their neighbours, it's even more of a nonsense.

End of the day: will there be any effort in either (i) an average Chinese person having to strain to understand you or (ii) you having to modify your pronunciation a little bit?

If either of these are non-significant efforts, then I can't see the problem.

[OneEye]

What are these two errors?

You're right, sorry. I had a thought in my head, then got distracted by another before I finished it, and didn't proofread very well.

One is that "standard" means precisely what I've been talking about, a well-educated native speaker from Taipei. That isn't quite right, of course, because the standard (規範) is the pronunciation set forth by the Ministry of Education, and it's something I've only ever heard from Chinese teachers.

The other is simply that the "standard" contains a lot of 捲舌, so you should always 捲舌 when speaking to foreigners, because they want to learn the "standard." This can get confusing, because you'll hear people trying to sound "standard" saying things like "shìbǎi shānshíshān yuán" for 四百三十三元, or míngzhì for 名字, etc.

I thought the people on your links were speaking a version of Mandarin that is closer to the Beijing standard than to what I normally associate with Taiwan people on TV.

Yes, a lot of people in the entertainment industry in Taiwan speak a more basilectal version of Taiwanese Mandarin. Younger people tend to speak a more neutral, acrolectal Mandarin, partly because they're more likely to be native Mandarin speakers than their parents are (there's a push toward raising your kids to speak Mandarin, even if your own native language is 台語), and partly because they're more educated than before, with more experience abroad. As you get into the middle-aged and older populations, people who speak that sort of Mandarin tend to be mid-century mainland immigrants and their children.

Why should it be natural?

Personal preference. I find it more impressive to hear a non-native English speaker with a light regional accent than it is to hear one with perfect news anchor pronunciation. One sounds like a native speaker speaking naturally, the other sounds forced and practiced. I'd be more inclined to think the former was a native speaker than the latter, and for me the goal is to sound like a native speaker. Similarly, I'm more impressed by a learner who speaks Chinese with a great Taiwanese accent than I am with one who sticks to the MOE standard, all other things being equal. I'm not good at distinguishing regional accents from China, but I don't mind listening to learners that learned in China using 兒化, and I like hearing native speakers from China who do. But it sounds very odd for someone who learned Chinese in Taiwan to use 兒化 just because it's the standard. One example I like to use is "lèsètǒng zài nǎr 垃圾桶在哪兒," which is some sort of weird half-Taiwanese (lèsè) half-mainland/MOE standard (兒化) thing, and is something you'll only hear from teachers and foreigners here. Unfortunately, this sort of thing is encouraged by some teachers here, because it's "correct," and "Taiwanese people who don't say it like that are wrong."

The cons of speaking how most people in Taiwan speak are what? That some mainlanders won't be able to understand you?

Again, not "most people in Taiwan," but "well-educated native Mandarin speakers from Taiwan." I don't think very many mainlanders would have problems understanding either of the two examples of acrolectal Taiwanese Mandarin I linked to above (the TV show and the news anchor). Heavily 台語-accented Mandarin, on the other hand, is a different story.

[renzhe]

Just to clear up -- I do not have anything against learning Taipei pronunciation. Especially since everyone understands it. I am perfectly fine with OneEye learning an accent more suited to Taiwan, since this is where he spends most of his time.

If you're going to live in Brazil, you should learn that pronunciation rather than the European one. And vice-versa. Same with American and British English.

I was just wondering whether the accent you learn as a foreigner has to be natural. In the PRC, or if your goal is primarily in interacting with people from the PRC, I'd go for standard putonghua, whether it's natural or not.

Personal preference. I find it more impressive to hear a non-native English speaker with a light regional accent than it is to hear one with perfect news anchor pronunciation.

Agreed, but I think that this is the highest level of language-learning. I personally believe that the most acceptable standard should be your aim, because that standard is acceptable in almost all situations, especially formal ones. What I think many people try to do and fail miserably (and I do not mean you by this, just many people I've met over the years) is to go full local slang before they can even pronounce the language correctly, resulting in an unintelligible mess.

If you can pull off a really good Andalusian or Californian or Geordie accent when it is called for, that's really really impressive. But accents are hard, and if you're pulling a weird half-Cockney and half-Greek concoction, then that's a language-learning fail, especially if you can't produce the standard pronunciation when you are not understood. I understand that you're talking about the non-stigmatised well-educated accents, and I'm mentioning some that are potentially not, but those are just some examples.

In my opinion, it is a matter of priorities. Widely understood, non-stigmatised, respected accent should be the priority. Authentic local speech is a nice extra. Once again, in your case the well-educated Taipei accent might be the best choice for the widely-understood prestige accent.

[Guest realmayo]

I reckon if you're living outside of China it's a good idea. But, if you're living a while in the north, you'll probably end up sounding a bit "northern", and from the south a bit "southern", and I'd say neither of these small deviations from the classroom standard are a big deal.

Over time maybe putonghua in the PRC will move towards the situation with English in the UK: a mutually understandable language despite a clear north/south difference, and pockets of dialectical usage. Let's say Cantonese = Welsh here.

Makes sense if you study English in the north of English to adopt the northern vowels rather than the southern ones, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

OneEye, to your ears, where does this 台湾妹妹's accent fall versus what you normally expect to hear from a well-educated 台湾人?

http://news.ifeng.com/opinion/phjd/qqsrx/detail_2012_03/15/13211636_0.shtml

It's a 锵锵三人行 link. Even the host isn't textbook putonghua right?

[OneEye]

What I think many people try to do and fail miserably (and I do not mean you by this, just many people I've met over the years) is to go full local slang before they can even pronounce the language correctly, resulting in an unintelligible mess.

I agree, but I'm not talking about slang here, just accent (pronunciation and prosody). As an example, I have a friend who speaks very clear, refined, neutral English, but I could hear that she was from Texas (much like I can hear that the news anchor I linked to above is from Taiwan). Not a strong accent, but a very slight one. I knew her for three months before I found out she wasn't even a native speaker of English at all, but of Korean. She had learned English in Dallas when she moved there with her family. For me, that's the ideal that I aim for. If people start mistaking me for maybe a missionary kid who grew up and went to university in Taiwan, I'll have succeeded.

IMO, it doesn't matter that, as you say, we're talking about "the highest level of language-learning" here. I believe you should always aim for the target, and my target (even if I don't ever hit it) is native-like proficiency, so I prefer to imitate native speakers over the textbook standard. This is why I often ask a native speaker when I have a question about pronunciation rather than going to the MOE dictionary. I have a few friends (eloquent, well-educated, highly articulate native speakers who make a living in translation and interpretation) whose speech I consider to be the gold standard of what I'm aiming for, and they serve as my informants whenever I'm unsure. They've also learned English to a very high level, and they understand what I mean when I tell them I'm going for native-like authenticity over textbook correctness.

But again, that's just me. If the situation in China calls for sticking to textbook-like 普通話 rather than sounding like an educated speaker of whatever part of the country you learned in, then so be it. I don't really see how someone who speaks like the host in realmayo's video, who has a discernible regional accent, would have a hard time being understood anywhere, though. I understand him just fine, and I'm much more accustomed to Taiwanese accents than mainland ones.

By way of contrast with what I posted before,

of a very strong 台語-influenced accent. Taiwanese people call this sort of accent 台灣國語, even though outside of Taiwan I think that word just refers to Taiwanese Mandarin of any sort. I have a hard time with this one, but can get most of it, aside from a few times when he switches to 台語. It's fun to imitate this sort of accent, and my Taiwanese friends get a kick out of it when I do it, but of course there are a million reasons why a learner shouldn't view this sort of accent as their goal. It's authentic, and you hear it all the time here, and any Taiwanese person could probably understand it, but it's painful to listen to, it isn't a native Mandarin speaker, and most of the Chinese-speaking world would have no clue what you're saying.

OneEye, to your ears, where does this 台湾妹妹's accent fall versus what you normally expect to hear from a well-educated 台湾人?

I'd say she sounds like most educated young female native Mandarin speakers from Taiwan. Her accent isn't especially nice-sounding, and she could stand to articulate better (which seems to be kind of a thing among young Taiwanese girls), but it's quite clear to me. I wonder how you and others here perceive it? By the way, something I always notice when listening to a Taiwanese person speak with a mainlander is the difference in prosody. Taiwanese Mandarin is more syllable-timed, whereas mainland Mandarin is more stress-timed. Big difference in rhythm.

Where's the host from? 東北 or 河北 would be my guess, but like I said I'm not good at picking out mainland accents.

By the way, does anyone have any input on well-educated native Mandarin speakers from Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Xi'an, or wherever? Assuming their accents are distinguishable in some way, would they have any problems communicating with each other? And if a foreigner sounded like he had grown up in say, Xi'an, but had a very clear, neutral accent otherwise, would it be a problem?

[Guest realmayo]

I think she sounds lovely! I'd rather listen to that all day than a Beijing newscastress. But then, I think the Cantonese guy is nice to listen to too. Do you reckon he is as stress-timed as the host? Maybe I'm listening out for the wrong thing but I don't hear much difference in stress/timing between him and the girl. You see, I reckon most if not everything you're saying about Taiwan is true for southern China (including e.g. Hubei/Sichuan/Hunan/Kunming). So when you say "Taiwanese person speak with a mainlander" I wonder if you actually would notice any difference if that mainlander came from south of the Yangtse. Isn't syllable-timed versus stress-timed also linked to "neutral" syllables, of which there are very few in the south.

My favourite TW accent is in 不良笑花 here

Sadly the complex and classy plot-line requires her to make her accent increasingly posh as the series goes on.

I agree about "slight accent" versus slang or heavy dialect usage. I know renzhe takes a hard line on accent this but personally I think it's too hard a line. There's far more important things to worry about I reckon.

[renzhe]

my target (even if I don't ever hit it) is native-like proficiency, so I prefer to imitate native speakers over the textbook standard.

Agreed, but if you can hit that target, then you should also be able to hit the textbook standard too, if the need calls for it, right?

I mean, most well-educated native speakers can easily switch between the accent they use at home and an accent they use in formal situations. Most of my uni friends from England would speak differently at a job interview, for example.

If the situation in China calls for sticking to textbook-like 普通話 rather than sounding like an educated speaker of whatever part of the country you learned in, then so be it.

Actually, I believe that this is exactly how most of them will sound like -- or TRY to sound like.

I know renzhe takes a hard line on accent this but personally I think it's too hard a line. There's far more important things to worry about I reckon.

I agree that there are far more important things to worry about. If you can be understood without any effort, you're fine in my book, like I wrote in an earlier post.

I guess that I like aiming for a native accent because it's hard to do, cool, and it breaks the ice at parties. It's just a personal goal for me, not something I expect others to do.

[Guest realmayo]

... I was with you entirely until "native accent"! But I guess we've never really defined this so it's natural there'll be some talking at cross-purposes.

Just one thing I'd add to explain a bit more about why someone living south of the Yangtse might prefer a slightly more local accent: it doesn't have to be for the cool, local factor (people saying wow your local language is so good is in a way the same as saying your Chinese is so 标准).

Imagine you're somewhere in China where the local fangyan is quite close to textbook but they don't roll their tongues back at all, nor do they have many neutral tones or erhua. But when they're tying to speak putonghua they get very close to standard: but the tongue doesn't go very far back, and there's no neutral tones or erhua. Basically, a generic non-northern accent I think.

If when you're learning Chinese you insist on speaking with these people with lots of tongue-rolling and erhua and neutral tones so you sound like a stand-out northerner, you're adding one more barrier. You're saying to your friend: I'm learning Chinese, you're a native speaker, but you're not good enough for me! Of course your friend probably understands, he wishes he could turn on the CCTV-accent when required. But then multiply it out not just to your friend but everyone you talk to outside the classroom. Including your teachers. It just feels a bit awkward or unnatural -- not really what talking to people in their own language should be all about.

So I just wanted to say speaking with a moderate accent (no erhua, not many neutral tones) may be for a good reason and not because of laziness or whimsy or trying to be cooler than the kids back in the classroom.