Interfere in a physical altercation?

[woliveri]

Well, I got on the bus today as I often do and as I was getting on I heard an argument between two older women and a young man. They were talking in Shanghai dialect so I couldn't quite understand what was going on.. It seems the young man did something when he passed the women and they were complaining about it (my guess from the way the women were pointing at their legs or feet). Anyway, the argument got hot and the women started called the boy some nasty name (I think it was 250 in Shanghai Hua), 250 is something bad to say to someone. So, the young man (maybe about 20 years old) hauled off and with all his force kicked this rather frail looking old woman in the chest. I was shocked at both the strength he kicked her (full force front kick with the bottom of the foot) and how well she stood up against it. Pretty tough old bird.

But what also caught my interest is no one on the bus, male or female tried to stop this young man from attacking the women physically.

Question. Has anyone else experienced this in China and would you get in the middle of this (as a LaoWai)?

[gougou]

See these related threads: Spousal abuse question

What would you do if you saw someone beating their wife?

[gato]

See below an old thread about this culture of standing by while a stranger gets beaten.

Chinese traditional morality is relationship-based, that is, ethical rules, how one behaves towards another depend on the relationship of that person and you. The Confucians taught something along this line, though they generally emphasized the positive aspects, that one has an extra set of moral duties towards those who are one's elders and superiors. But the implication is that one has less duty towards everyone else.

There is no entrenched belief in China as there is in Christian countries that one should love one's neighbor. Human beings are naturally selfish and tend to favor their own and probably need the extra push by society to behave well towards strangers. Since there is not much of that in traditional Chinese morality (so far I understand), many Chinese tend to take a "mind my own business" approach to life. In the mainland, this problem is exacerbated by many years of living under political turmoil, during which many "Good Samaritans" were not only not rewarded but punished.

I know I'm generalizing here, but I think it's probably true. Mozi (墨子, founder of Mohism) advocated a form of "universal love" (兼爱), but it never became very popular. Buddism, which also advocates a form of "universal love," was more successful in spreading. But many Chinese rulers feared the egalitarianism inherent in Buddism and generally acted to suppress the spread of Buddhism, which never became dominant ideology like Confucianism.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3833-what-would-you-do-if-you-saw-someone-beating-their-wife&highlight=beating

What would you do if you saw someone beating their wife?

[woliveri]

yeah, but what if it's a LaoWai getting into it with a Chinese local.. I have felt that rather than not get involved there would be plenty who would want to help their local countryman fight the LaoWai.

I've seen this before when an American was having a rather loud argument with his Chinese girl employee.. This drew A Lot of attention and people started to ask the Chinese girl if she needed help against the LaoWai.

If this situation was Chinese/Chinese I think few, if any would ask to step in.

[muyongshi]

I know I will not be cultural in my response here but as one friend of mine says....cultural isn't God (meaning it can't rule us in every situation).

So in response to your question....I would kick that guys *** (it needn't be said).

May not be cultural but some things in culture (including my own) are not good and should be changed!

[againstwind]

Anyway, the young man shouldn't have kicked the old. 太不象话了！

If no one standed out stopping their arguments, that's reasonable. But how can they just look on the tough deed coldly? I think there should be a base line for so-called "事不关己,高高挂起".

Reminds me this thread:http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/136-chinese-lovers-day09

I do support the foreign lady in the thread above. Because she did right.

[gato]

See below for two articles from two years about a 14-year-old girl being choked to death on a public bus right in front. The second article has more details than the first. The bolded portion states that none of the passengers physically intervened, though some of them told the assailant to stop. Maybe they were too shocked to react? Or maybe they are just too used to not interfering in other people's disputes?

The assailant, by the way, received the death penalty, with a two-year delay in the execution.

http://cmp.hku.hk/look/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=1&NrIssue=1&NrSection=100&NrArticle=225

Strangling death of 14-year-old girl on Beijing public transportation

October 6, 2005

Mrs. Zheng says she hadn't wanted to argue about it at the time and was pulling out her money when her daughter became cross and spat out: "What are you trying to play at!" According to Mrs. Zheng, as soon as the seated attendant heard this, she stood up, took hold of Xiao Rong's hair and grabbed her throat with her right hand. While this happened, Mrs. Zheng tried urgently to push forward through several other passengers [so she could intervene].

Zhang Shifu, an employee at Xiqing Cleaners near the Xiaoxitian bus stop, said that at around 3 pm the 726 bus pulled into the stop and he noticed a uniformed woman in her 30's grabbing a young girl's hair. Another woman was yelling, "Leave my daughter alone!" When the attendant laid off, the girl cursed her and then fainted suddenly.

Zhang Zhuo, an emergency room doctor at Erpao General Hospital, said they received Xiao Rong sometime after 3 pm on October 4. A nurse discovered bruises on the girl's neck, and at that time the girl already had no vital signs. At 7:01 am on October 5, after attempting for 16 hours to save Xiao Rong, doctors pronounced the girl dead.

http://shang.cnfamily.com/200512/ca29035.htm

只因一元车票，清华教授的女儿竟被售票员活活掐死

晏淑琳并没有踢着那个售票员，可那个售票员更是火冒三丈：“你还敢打我！”她再次扑过去，用双手死死地掐住晏淑琳的脖子。这一次，任凭郑红怎么拉，那个售票员就是不松手。

乘客们看不下去了，纷纷指责：“你快把孩子掐死了，还不赶快松手！”

尽管晏思贤夫妇用劲掰开售票员的手，可他们一个是74岁高龄，一个年近花甲，怎么也掰不开那双钳子般的手。两位老人急得哭喊：“松手啊！”

那个售票员还是无动于衷。

众目睽睽下，人们看到晏淑琳的脸色一点一点地变青、嘴唇一点一点地发白，慢慢地瘫软下去。

“救救我女儿啊！我女儿快被售票员掐死了！”老教授夫妇对整车乘客哭喊请求。然而，满车乘客都被突如其来的变故惊呆了！

许久，那个售票员见晏淑琳真的快死了，才愤愤地松开双手。此时，晏淑琳几近昏死过去。

[muyongshi]

Sick sick sick sick sick.

I want to cry, I really do.

[Lu]

About the situation the OP writes about: is it possible that no one interfered because they didn't see it coming, and it happened too fast? Usually people fighting with words keep it at words, and don't get physical. I saw two man fighting on a bus once (in NL), but I didn't realize they would actually hit each other until the moment they did. (I didn't even consider stepping in, they were both the same size, and considerably bigger than me.)

[studentyoung]

So in response to your question....I would kick that guys *** (it needn't be said).

??? I guess you might be affected by some kind of films?

Sick sick sick sick sick.

I want to cry, I really do.

Sigh~ ~! If you want to cry, just do it, for it might make you feel better.

长久的心理不平衡以及繁重的工作压力，难免使他们心理脆弱；倘若受到外界刺激，难免引爆心中久久压抑的积怨，并失去理智地走向极端。然而，积怨不应该成为行凶的理由。

I think that it is right to say that negative emotions should not be an excuse for killing another person, however, I have to point out that it really can be a direct cause of homicide.

Thanks!

[muyongshi]

??? I guess you might be affected by some kind of films?

No, I'm just affected by an overly developed sense of justice. It's not a movie thing, it's what that guy deserves.

[imron]

Unfortunately, things don't always work out as you plan.

Imagine you witnessed this happening, and then decided to "kick that guys ***". Probably what would happen is that pretty quickly the bystanders would forget that the Chinese guy was the person who had initially assaulted that woman, and would see instead a foreigner beating up a Chinese. Then it becomes 40 to 1 against you, and if you're lucky you don't have to spend too many days in hospital.

I don't condone in anyway what that guy did, and I'm not saying stand there and do nothing because it's better than ending up in hospital yourself, just that there are other ways to address such a situation. Even then, you should also consider that the person you were stepping in to defend, might not see things the way you do, or even appreciate your efforts to help (and quite possibly instead will be more mortified by all the attention you were bringing to her).

I remember back when I used to teach English, I once intervened when I saw a bunch of my students bullying another one of my students during the break between class. When it started to get physical I naturally stepped in to break it up, however by doing so, that student then endured the loss of face of being "rescued" by a teacher and by a foreign teacher at that. In her eyes the "humiliation" of this was far worse than the small amount of physical pushing and shoving she would have endured otherwise, and looking back on it I'm still undecided as to whether what I did was right or not.

Obviously what happened on the bus is a far more serious situation, but I'm just trying to illustrate that things aren't always so black and white, and notions of what constitutes justice and how to mete it out aren't always so clear.

[muyongshi]

Imagine you witnessed this happening, and then decided to "kick that guys ***". Probably what would happen is that pretty quickly the bystanders would forget that the Chinese guy was the person who had initially assaulted that woman, and would see instead a foreigner beating up a Chinese. Then it becomes 40 to 1 against you, and if you're lucky you don't have to spend too many days in hospital.

I was telling one of my friends about this and his thought was I would probably get arrested...neither of which are great options to me but I would feel a lot better having done it none the less.

I would probably be more likely to hold the guy and get someone to get the cops (but I don't know if they, cops or the others, would even care).

[studentyoung]

No, I'm just affected by an overly developed sense of justice. It's not a movie thing, it's what that guy deserves.

What does that guy deserve? If beating someone could replace education and law, the whole society would be totally out of control, I'm afraid. Please kindly note that even a criminal, by and large, has some basic human rights to protect him from being beaten or mistreated, less say someone hasn’t been convicted. A infringes on B’s right doesn’t mean that you can take it as an excuse to infringe A’s right. If you are affected by an overly developed sense of justice, I would like to recommend you to read some law books, so that your honorable overly developed sense of justice will not be easily played on. (I don't want to offend, and I hope my words won’t offend you. But if they does, I’m sorry! )

I would probably be more likely to hold the guy and get someone to get the cops (but I don't know if they, cops or the others, would even care).

OK, your words sound more acceptable this time. In mainland China, if anything happens may you feel that a police must be on the spot, you can dial 110 (only Chinese service is available in most citiies).

Thanks!

[simonlaing]

I experienced a certain situation which was also one where I didn't know what to do. It was a few years ago, I was walking home with my CHinese girl friend when I say two university students. The one guy university student was blocking the way and holding the girl student preventing her from going on her way.

I could see that they knew each other but I was unsure what to do as technically they were not yelling at each other. It was like 10:30 at night and our school at that time has an 11 pm curfew. To my girlfriends objections I approached the pair and asked if everything was alright. The guy immediately said yes, yes everything is fine , theres is nothing wrong etc..

I waited until the girl said Everything was ok. Then I left and the couple seemed to go in the direction the male student wanted to go.

I am not sure if it was because the girl wanted to go to the net bar for the night, or do some night time work, or if the guy just wanted to make sure she got to the dorm before curfew. Anyway even if they were embarrassed by my interruption , I think I was justified.

In the case of the woman I would try and step between the two people. I heard that a crime against a foreigner incurs double jail time or punishment.

2 cents,

Simon:)

[gougou]

Anyway even if they were embarrassed by my interruption , I think I was justified.

That is always difficult to judge. If you had an argument with your girlfriend, possibly one which you deem very trivial, what would you think if someone (be it from your own culture or even somebody from a different cultural background) barged in?

Especially in a foreign country, I am very careful about these things. This is how stereotypes get created! Interfere in a situation where nobody appreciates your help, and half the people will walk away thinking that Westerners are nosy and inconsiderate.