Age and learning

[DrZero]

Do you guys feel like age (assuming one has already reached adulthood) has much effect on learning a language? I think there is a perception in the general population that a 20-year-old will be sharper and more able to retain information than a 45- or 55-year-old.

I am inclined to think this phenomenon is exagerrated. I believe it has more to do with the fact that as we get older we have more responsiblities in life, less time to study, possibly more stress, and as years pass we are also further removed from student mode and more set in our ways (for example, not as willing to contort our mouths to make the new sounds that a new language requires).

As for me, I am almost 31. I feel just as capable of learning a language now as 10 years ago. But who knows, maybe I'm not.

What does everyone think?

[david1978]

OMG! you're 31!!! Hang in the towel, buddy-it's over! hahaha 31 is young, man. It sounds to me like your problem is confidence, not age.

[gougou]

As for me, I am almost 31. I feel just as capable of learning a language now as 10 years ago.

I don't quite see a lack of confidence there...

I agree with many of the points DrZero makes, particularly about the attitude. In your twenties, you're in or fresh out of school, and you're used to continually wrap your mind around new things. Once you've left school for a couple of decades, that doesn't come quite as easily anymore. When I took Spanish classes in a public institution in Germany, there were two girls around my age, the rest was people in their 50's, preparing for retirement in Spain. It was probably the most boring class I ever attended, as the majority of the older people was unable to grasp even the simplest concepts of grammar (unless they happened to be the same in German).

However, this does not need to be like this. If somebody studies continually throughout his life, I am sure that his capacity to learn will not diminish significantly. On this board, we have several people in their 50's and 60's with amazing language skills, who should be proof enough that age alone does not play a major role in acquiring a new language.

[david1978]

@gougou, why would he even ask this question if there is no issue of confidence? It sounds to me like DrZero is seeking reassurance.

Anyway, I think the question is misguided because 31 is still young. I don't know how it would be for a 50 year old to learn a language, let alone Chinese, but a 31 year old person should have a crisp mind.

And just add one personal anecdote: I took 2 Chinese classes with an amazing 42 year old lady who was one of the best students in the class, a damn sharp woman she was.

[freefall]

Most children have mastered the most important and fundamental rules of their native language by the age of 3; many older second-language learners never fully master them. I personally believe in some sort of language mechanism which enables children to deduce these rules with enough exposure. Adult learners usually need a little help, like an explicit explanation of these rules. But once your brain is essentially matured you've lost that knack you had as a kid and your language learning aptitude should remain stable except for maybe a slow loss of general cognitive ability, the rate of which varies from person to person.

[simonlaing]

I agree with Freefall,

That it often depends on the person. I knew two women in their late 40s and even 50s who picked up Chinese to an intermediate level. Some of the time it concerns peoples attitudes. Since old people still make new memories I don't see why they can't learn new things.

However it is true that you can forget how to learn, and get a mental block that something is more difficult than it actually is as so then no matter how much time they spend on it. THey don't think it is actually necessary and thus don't really want to learn even if they go through the motions.

What do you think? have you met some one who always goes to class but doesn't learn the words or write out the characters? That's what I mean about go through the motions.

Have fun,

Simon:)

[muyongshi]

adult learners usually need a little help, like an explicit explanation of these rules.

Children have the ability to pick up pronunciation better and just how things are said naturally. Adults have an advantage that we have studied how to study. We know how to learn. I mean through drills, self-discipline etc.

On the other hand, the older we get there is a "hardening" if you will in the layers of our brain. These do place a small hurdle but are not massive walls. A 40 year old (this example is assuming no variance in learning strategy or 人才) may have a bit slower experience than a 20 year old and will probably have to put a bit more effort into it. But that is all other things aside.

[Senzhi]

Adults are fully responsible for their own learning, and that may (or may not) be daunting for some learners, espcially since they have also other responsibilities in life.

In general, there's no age limit to learning. As long as it stays fun, then you're more than OK.

I'm 38, and I have been studying for ... 38 years. I also do feel sometimes I can't catch up in speed with younger learners, but then ... I may beat them in the long run due to my life experiences.

[muyongshi]

In general, there's no age limit to learning. As long as it stays fun, then you're more than OK.

From your experience then you think enjoyment is vital, but how much would self-discipline play into your assessment? I think all of us would agree (if not do tell me) that being adult many times just means having to bite the bullet whether or not we like it. How much does this affect your learning?

I'm 38, and I have been studying for ... 38 years. I also do feel sometimes I can't catch up in speed with younger learners, but then ... I may beat them in the long run due to my life experiences.

I would say that you may also have an endurance in learning attitudes that many younger ones may not have and so would definitely beat them in the long run because they may give up while you press on.

[Shadowdh]

Personally I think age is a barrier only if you want it or think it to be... keep the mind open, receptive and flexible...

[muyongshi]

Personally I think age is a barrier only if you want it or think it to be... keep the mind open, receptive and flexible...

Can you maybe elaborate a bit for me? Do you not think that there is an aging process that goes on in the brain and therefore makes it at least a bit harder? Or do you think that the brain only ages if we do not keep it "flexible"?

[Senzhi]

Muyonghsi,

Dedication, self-discipline and endurance are indeed all factors that influence learning ... for both adults and young learners.

However, they all are dependent from intrinsic and/or extrinsic motivation factors: why do we learn?

Motivation factors for young learners are different than for adults: young learners may be under pressure from educational laws, wishing to achieve a degree, under pressure from their parents. Or even be simply promised something like e.g. a Playstation, a car, etc.

For adults motivation lies more in the line of personal satisfaction, personal relationships, career development etc.

Regarding age, of course the brains suffers in the long run. But it can be trained and maintained up to a relatively old age. My grandmother still beats me in the most difficult crossword puzzles, without a dictionary of any kind.

She's 87 years old ... and still learning every day, because she enjoys it.

[david1978]

Senzhi, I think you make a great point. The fact is, adult learners have no accountability. Their motivation, then, must come from within. On the other hand, young students face accountability and reprimanding should they fail . A+

[tuanjie]

Regarding the neurological aspect: I saw this Charlie Rose program on the human brain with a panel of experts. One of the panel persons was talking about language learning at different stages and the development of the brain. She grouped some age periods together where one is progressively disadvantaged - and I forget exactly the cut-off points, but something like: 0-7; 7-13; 13-21; 21 -40; 40 -?

So the point is, according to this scientist, being 25 or being 35 is not a significant difference. maybe the next loss of powers happens in the 40's.

Regardless, I don't think any of this should discourage us from learning at any age. It's also probably more difficult as we get older to hike a mountain, but if you'd like to go on a hike or have some good reason to, nobody would say: "Oh, I'm 40, and I was much more able in my late teens. I think I'll sit this one out." Of course not. Our equipment is good enough. We go.

[volga_volga]

I believe age counts less then the foreign language study experience, and the number of foreign languages already studied. Don't they say that each new foreign language takes less effort to study than the previous one?

Myself: at the age of 17, I could only speak one foreign language at below-intermediate level; at the age of 25, I could speak the same language at an advanced level. At the age of 30, I could speak two foreign languages at advanced level - having learnt the second language with less effort and time. At the age of 37 (now), I have already been studying Chinese for a couple of years, and given the amount of time I spent on studying and the comparative difficulty, I can say that this I am learning this third language faster than the first and the second. Even though I am older and have 'no accountability' (for the language learning results) and more responsibilities (for everything else )))).

This is to say, adults probably have more extensive language learning experience (those who keep this minds open to new learnings and experiences, of course he-he) than younger people and therefore are not necessarily slower learners.

Finally, learning a language would keep the mind young and sharp )))))

[anonymoose]

I agree that the age factor is overstated, but I'm sure it also exists.

I think that there are other factors, however, which have a much more significant influence. One of these is interest and motivation. Very young children have a strong will to learn, not just language, but everything. That's why kids can never sit still and will always push every button and pull every lever they see.

As people get older, they lose this motivation. Of course, motivation can also arise from other factors, such as interest in a particular area, or a professional need, and so on. Certainly, for myself, I used to pick up nearly everything at school just by listening passively. But now, whilst I still find learning Chinese relatively easy, because I find it interesting, I have also noticed that learning other things that I'm not interested in is much harder. I think this is because as an adult, one has more responsibilities than simply education, and the amount of motivation left for these extra things is much less than it is as a youngster. It's much more difficult to internalise and retain things in your mind when you have no interest in them.

[skylee]

I agree that the age factor is overstated, but I'm sure it also exists.

I think that there are other factors, however, which have a much more significant influence. One of these is interest and motivation. Very young children have a strong will to learn, not just language, but everything. That's why kids can never sit still and will always push every button and pull every lever they see.

As people get older, they lose this motivation. Of course, motivation can also arise from other factors, such as interest in a particular area, or a professional need, and so on. Certainly, for myself, I used to pick up nearly everything at school just by listening passively. But now, whilst I still find learning Chinese relatively easy, because I find it interesting, I have also noticed that learning other things that I'm not interested in is much harder. I think this is because as an adult, one has more responsibilities than simply education, and the amount of motivation left for these extra things is much less than it is as a youngster. It's much more difficult to internalise and retain things in your mind when you have no interest in them.

very well said. thank you.

[Scoobyqueen]

Very young children have a strong will to learn, not just language, but everything.

Their brains are not yet full so they are much more capable.

[querido]

I'm let's say 50+.

I find learning Chinese very hard but not impossible.

I'm studying Chinese partly because there's no way I can match my performance in youth at math, chess, etc. Real language usage requires depth just like math and chess, and unexpectedly it looks like that's the hard part for me. But until then a path of gradual accumulation is possible, collecting words and sentences like stamps or butterflies. Very slowly they link together into useable strings.

At every stage of life we have the option of pushing very hard or slacking off. My mind is slowing (and that would be demoralizing) but I'm still faced with that same choice, knowing that if I give up I lose whatever it is I could have had. Just choose wisely with regard to what you want to "have" in life, because it *is* finite.

[buzhongren]

I'm let's say 50+.

I find learning Chinese very hard but not impossible.

I'm studying Chinese partly because there's no way I can match my performance in youth at math, chess, etc. Real language usage requires depth just like math and chess, and unexpectedly it looks like that's the hard part for me. But until then a path of gradual accumulation is possible, collecting words and sentences like stamps or butterflies. Very slowly they link together into useable strings.

At every stage of life we have the option of pushing very hard or slacking off. My mind is slowing (and that would be demoralizing) but I'm still faced with that same choice, knowing that if I give up I lose whatever it is I could have had. Just choose wisely with regard to what you want to "have" in life, because it *is* finite.

When I was young I was good at math and chess, literally. Now that my head is all grey hairs I enjoy Chinese. Its the benchmark I use to notice any declining mental abilities. My only regret I wished I would have started sooner. I tend to gloss over rather than dive in learning Chinese. I enjoy the big picture more than the details which I think is the hallmark of aging. I can still think like a Math major. Im watching a blackboard presentation of Einsteins general relativity equations applied to a black hole. It was easy to see substituting zero in the denominators made them useless. You can end up with an infinite series of infinity terms.

xiele,

Jim