Help with Translating Philosophy Verses Needed

[muyongshi]

First is the translation you gave supposed to be it's intent because according to my understanding it's not the "translation" of the sentence? So are you just looking at context and in the end what the meaning is they are trying to convey?

德 in this context is probably better translated as "merit" (Even the word "merit" as used here is a Buddhist terminology (功德), and not the "merit" we commonly encounter).

I would not fully agree with word merit here (I know we do translate this as merit) but due to the history of this English word I do not believe that it could be used here without confusion of meaning. I'm referring to the Catholic reference here. But I do not know that we could translate it as anything else, but I think that is something to really take into consideration.

[insight]

I think just make it simple. Anbody that reads this "我慢高山不出德水", despite of the religion etc will think that 德 is virtue. May be in the Buddhist concept 德 means 功德 (merit), but to have merits, first of all you should have the virtue.

So, what is important is to have virtue first, and then the merits. Without virtue there's no merit at all. This is my take!

[HashiriKata]

You're probably right, muyongshi & insight.

(In the spirit of Buddhism, I can only try to enlighten when requested but you're the one to decide whether you want to be enlightened. )

[muyongshi]

The loftiness of my heart is void of all virtue.

I think I originally used loftiness because it conveys both arrogance and highness (高山) so I think this is in terms of translation would work. And I think it sounds like a native saying so those are the standards I would judge by...

P.S. Just saw your post now, HashiriKata!

[insight]

Well... I've been thinking on these two choices and I think you are correct, may be we'd better switch to the loftiness as you said this will convey the idea of a mountain, so it matches with the connotation in both languages!

[studentyoung]

The arrogance of my heart is void of all virtue

Oh, the sentence is translated in a refined way! Great!

Thanks!

[insight]

Does anyone have idea of how to translate 啣泥帶得落花歸?

Many thanks

[muyongshi]

The flower completely pulled down by the mud, returns.

That is my unrefined thoughts on it. A bit wordy but I will sit and think on it some more.

[insight]

Thanks a lot Muyonshi!

I asked a friend of mine, and she told me that this phrase comes from an archaic poem. But she didn't explain to me the meaning, because she said that she was not sure.

By the way, Muyonshi do think it is ok if I translate 打禪機 as to throw the zen cues? And 禪機 as Zen cues?

e.g. 老和尚跟我打禪機

The old monk threw the zen cues to me. ( Is this correct?)

This is really hard for me because apparently many of the terms have no equivalents in English.

Thanks a lot for your kind help

[muyongshi]

I'm not sure about the translation of 打禅机 but in the sentence I think the it would be better read the Old Monk threw the zen cues for me.

If I'm not misunderstanding the implication of 禅机 then I think it would be an action that is done for you not at you.

I need to think more on the 禅机 part and then I'll get back to you.

On the flower one: I think this might sound more proverb like

The flower weighed (pulled) down returns from the mud.

[insight]

Thank you Muyonshi for the quick reply.

I may give you an example to illustrate the idea of 打禪機 by a Koan:

A young monk had been practing in a monastery for many years and he did not attain enlightenment. So, he decided to leave his teacher. However his teacher perceived his thought and one day before parting, he called him out. While they were walking, they saw swallows flying accross the sky. The old monk asked him: "What is it?" He replied, "the swallows." All of a sudden, the old monk pulled his ear and dragged him back to the monastery. When they reached the monastery, the young monk realized what the old monk meant: he had long lost his mind in pursue of sensory experiences and enlightenment comes within and not outwardly. So he made up his mind to stay in the monastery and continue his cultivation. After a very short time, he attained the enlightenment. Though the old monk didn't say anything thing, this is a 打禪機 by pulling his diciple's ear. This behavior was a cue to the disciple that meant " insight" or "introspection".

Now, do yo have a better understanding of this term?

Thanks a lot

[studentyoung]

啣泥帶得落花歸?

asked a friend of mine, and she told me that this phrase comes from an archaic poem. But she didn't explain to me the meaning, because she said that she was not sure.

Yes, it is from a poem by 吕霜 in Qing Dynasty.

一年社日都忘了，

忽见庭前燕子飞，

禽鸟也知勤作室，

衔泥带得落花归。

My translation here is for your reference.

I've forgotten all the sacred days for gnomes for year long.

Suddenly I see a swallow flying in my front yard.

Even birds now know to build their nests hard,

so dropped flowers are brought back to nest while they’re carrying mud.

Thanks!

[insight]

Woah! Studentyoung, you are so studious!

I didn't have any idea of what it means in Chinese. But with your translation in English, that makes easier to understand.

Thanks a lot for the information. So this was actually from Qing Dynasty.

I've forgotten all the sacred days for gnomes for year long.

Suddenly I see a swallow flying in my front yard.

Even birds now know to build their nests hard,

so dropped flowers are brought back to nest while they’re carrying mud.

I think it is a quite good translation from Chinese. But the last sentence, what does it actually mean in Chinese? Does it mean everything turns back to the nature? Something like that? With the connotation that everything eventually becomes void?

By the way, how do you say 感應道交 顯靈 靈感 ? These terms are referring to the divine manifestations.

　　(I am having migraines)

[muyongshi]

I've forgotten all the sacred days for gnomes for year long.

Suddenly I see a swallow flying in my front yard.

Even birds now know to build their nests hard,

so dropped flowers are brought back to nest while they’re carrying mud.

I would think it should be translated something more like this:

I've forgotten all the years sacrifices (to the gods)

Suddenly I see a swallow flying in my front yard

Even birds know how to diligently build their nest

So that even mud covered flowers are returned to the nest

[insight]

Dear Muyonshi

I like your last sentence :

So that even mud covered flowers are returned to the nest

This really sounds magnific!! And it coincides with Chinese!!

By the way, have you got any idea of how to translate 打禪機? 感應道交 顯靈 靈感 and 靈氣?

OOps!!! Too many questions at a time!!

[muyongshi]

By the way, how do you say 感應道交 顯靈 靈感 ? These terms are referring to the divine manifestations.

Is this one phrase? I'm reading it as 3 seperate and here is my box work just looking at the 字面义

感应道交- The process of injunction through which the tao (dao) is given

显灵- revelation of a spirit

灵感- movement of the spirit (in modern Chinese it would be inspiration)

Not too sure how accurate this is...just looking at the 字面义

[muyongshi]

By the way, have you got any idea of how to translate 打禪機? 感應道交 顯靈 靈感 and 靈氣

1) One definition that I have found is "allegorical words or gestures" (for the 禅机)

2) See above

3) Divine and wonderful Spirit or from the 字面义 i would guess the temperment of the spirit

[insight]

Thanks for your help dear Muyongshi

感应道交- The process of injunction through which the tao (dao) is given

显灵- revelation of a spirit

灵感- movement of the spirit (in modern Chinese it would be inspiration

Sorry I didn't put the coma. Yes, I am looking for the English translation for these 3 terms.

感应道交 is not neccesarily Dao 's concept. It may refer to Buddhism, Christianity or Catholism. It is something like epiphany. But epiphany is a noun. How to say I have a "epiphany " with the God" ????? Or the god brought an epiphany? (I read that from a book)

I agree with you that 显灵 is revelation of a spirit. But if I want to use it as a noun, may I say a divine manifestation instead?

灵感 is inspiration in most cases. But when you are talking about gods or spirits, I think it is something like you can have an easy response with it and that god or spirit is 灵感

Thanks a lot for your help!!!

S.O.S.

[muyongshi]

感应道交 is not neccesarily Dao 's concept. It may refer to Buddhism, Christianity or Catholism. It is something like epiphany. But epiphany is a noun. How to say I have a "epiphany " with the God" ????? Or the god brought an epiphany? (I read that from a book)

Due to Christian terminology in English we would say revelation. God gave me a revelation. Epiphany is used sepertley from the spiritual a lot. But I would still argue that you can say dao because dao doesn't always mean taoism. It can mean truth or reality (as in the reality of the situation), or even the right way as well.

I agree with you that 显灵 is revelation of a spirit. But if I want to use it as a noun, may I say a divine manifestation instead?

Divine Manifestation is perfect.

[insight]

Dear Muyongshi,

So how would you say 打禪機 in this case?

老和尚跟我打禪機?

The Old Monk gave me allegorical words

？　

Will people understand it?　

Ｓorry, I am coming up with too many questions