The Buddhist Sutra Translation/Discussion Thread

[insight]

Does anybody kow how to translate this?

所行非常，

謂興衰法夫生輒死，

此滅為樂，

譬如陶家，埏埴作器，

一切要壞，人命亦然！

[againstwind]

wooooooo!

Buddhist sutra episode. Hard to translate:roll: .

[HashiriKata]

Help! Help! Who knows it?

I don't know it, but will have a go (just for fun ):

所行非常 謂興衰法　　・・・　Nothing is more permanent than the impermanence of life

夫生輒死 此滅為樂 　・・・ 　We are born to die, and that is also how we reach Nirvana

譬如陶家 埏埴作器 　・・・ 　Take a look at those beautiful utensils the potters have made

一切要壞 人命亦然　　・・・　They'll all be broken and gone one day, in the way we all will be

[insight]

HashiriKata

所行非常 謂興衰法・・・Nothing is more permanent than the impermanence of life

夫生輒死 此滅為樂 ・・・We are born to die, and that is also how we reach Nirvana

譬如陶家 埏埴作器 ・・・Take a look at those beautiful utensils the potters have made

一切要壞 人命亦然・・・They'll all be broken and gone one day, in the way we all will be

Your take is not bad, yeah?

But my understanding of these verses is slightly different

所行非常 謂興衰法 All the phenomena are impermanent with formation and decay

夫生輒死 此滅為樂 If there is life there is death the ceasation of this is the bliss

譬如陶家 埏埴作器 Like the beautiful utensils (that) the potter had made

一切要壞 人命亦然 They will vanish in the air, in the same way is as with our life.

This is my take. Does anybody have a better suggestion?

Reference:

行= all the conditioned things (有為法)

Metta

[insight]

It is getting more and more difficult

大慈與一切眾生樂，大悲拔一切眾生苦；大慈以喜樂因緣與眾生，大悲以離苦因緣與眾生。譬如有人，諸子繫在獄中，當受大辟。其父慈惻，以若干方便，令得免苦是大悲；得離苦已，以五所欲給與諸子是大慈。

How do you say this in English? Not easy, yeah?

[studentyoung]

所行非常，

謂興衰法夫生輒死，

此滅為樂，

譬如陶家，埏埴作器，

一切要壞，人命亦然！

They are from Section无常品in 《法句经》, also called as 《法句集经》、《法句集》、《法句录》、《昙钵经》、《昙钵偈》. They mean:

　　

人生在世无常，此谓兴衰法则：那生命动辄走向死亡，然而这正是涅盘之乐!（二）

　　犹如制陶工人揉泥制作器皿：所有制成的器皿最终都要毁坏，人的生命也是这样。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%CB%F9%3B%D0%D0%3B%B7%C7%B3%A3%2C%CE%BD%3B%D0%CB%CB%A5%3B%B7%A8&url=http%3A//post%2Ebaidu%2Ecom/f%3Fkz%3D87176091&p=8f759a47ca9612a05bed8f3e5343&user=baidu#baidusnap0

Life is impermanence, which is called as the law of the rise and fall;

Life is doomed to come to an end, which is also the happiness of nirvana.

Just like earthenware pots made from mud by potters, they all will be broken at the end.

So is human beings’ life.

无常品②第一二十有一章

　　无常品者，寤③欲昏乱，荣命难保，惟道是真。

　　睡眠解寤④，宜欢喜思⑤。听我所说，操集⑥佛言。 一

　　所行非常，谓兴衰法。夫生辄死⑦，此灭⑧为乐。 二

　　譬如陶家，埏埴⑨作器，一切要坏，人命亦然。

注释

　　①吴天竺：吴，三国时吴国。天竺，即印度。

　　②无常品：无常，佛教的基本概念，即指现实人世中万事万物的暂时性。品，即相当於现代著作中的「篇」或「章」。

　　③寤：醒著的。这裏作动词用，开悟，使人明白。

　　④解寤：醒过来了。

　　⑤思：语尾词，没有实在意义。

　　⑥操集：收集。

　　⑦夫生辄死：全句意谓那生命啊动辄就走向死亡。夫，发语词，没有实在意，相当於「那」。辄，立即、很快。

　　⑧灭：佛教的四谛之一。苦、集、灭、道。此处即指生命的消亡，烦恼灭尽，故曰灭，又日涅盘。

　　⑨埏埴：用泥土制作陶器。埏，音shan，以水和泥曰埏；埴，泥土。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%CB%F9%3B%D0%D0%3B%B7%C7%B3%A3%2C%CE%BD%3B%D0%CB%CB%A5%3B%B7%A8&url=http%3A//post%2Ebaidu%2Ecom/f%3Fkz%3D87176091&p=8f759a47ca9612a05bed8f3e5343&user=baidu#baidusnap0

Thanks!

[studentyoung]

大慈與一切眾生樂，大悲拔一切眾生苦；大慈以喜樂因緣與眾生，大悲以離苦因緣與眾生。譬如有人，諸子繫在獄中，當受大辟。其父慈惻，以若干方便，令得免苦是大悲；得離苦已，以五所欲給與諸子是大慈。

The words are from《大智度论》.

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%C6%E4%B8%B8%3B%B4%C8%3B%E2%FC%2C%D2%D4%3B%C8%F4%B8%C9%3B%B7%BD%B1%E3%2C%C1%EE%3B%B5%C3%3B%C3%E2%3B%BF%E0%3B%CA%C7%3B%B4%F3%B1%AF%2C%B5%C3%3B%C0%EB%3B%BF%E0%3B%D2%D1%2C%D2%D4%3B%CE%E5%3B%CB%F9%3B%D3%FB%3B%B8%F8%D3%EB%3B%D6%EE%D7%D3%3B%CA%C7%3B%B4%F3%B4%C8&url=http%3A//post%2Ebaidu%2Ecom/f%3Fkz%3D177451945&p=c07dcd5985cc42a843bd9b7c5b47&user=baidu#baidusnap0

OK, just a rough translation.

The infinite mercy gives happiness to all flesh, while the infinite compassion saves all flesh from tribulations. The infinite mercy is given to all flesh through the karma of happiness; while the infinite compassion is given to all flesh through the karma of rescue. For example, someone’s sons are put into jail, and will be executed soon. If he (the father) is merciful and he enlightens them with great wisdom to free them from mental cruelty, it is called as compassion. While they are free from mental cruelty, he helps them understand the five desires among mortals, it is called the infinite mercy.

譬如有人，諸子繫在獄中，當受大辟

意思是說有一個人，他有很多無知的孩子，關在獄中將要受死刑了，大辟就是古時候的死刑，這也就是形容眾生在這個生死的三界獄，已經快要面臨大限了。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%C4%B4%A6p%3B%A6%B3%3B%A4H%2C%BD%D1%A4l%3B%A8t%3B%A6b%3B%BA%BB%A4%A4%2C%B7%ED%3B%A8%FC%3B%A4j%B9%40&url=http%3A//www%2Edizapusa%2Eorg%2Etw/publish/publish4/publish4%2Ehtm&p=882a900ec7861dfc57ed97391300&user=baidu#baidusnap0

耳闻好声。鼻识好香。舌识美味。身识细滑。可意忻悦。志于所乐。为之所染。心贪于法。是五所欲。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%D2%D4%3B%CE%E5%3B%CB%F9%3B%D3%FB&url=http%3A//post%2Ebaidu%2Ecom/f%3Fkz%3D94969879&p=8a6f8f15d9c103e80fbe9b7d0b5c&user=baidu

Thanks!

[insight]

Hi, Studentyoung

Thanks a lot for your hard work. It's not that bad!! I am surprised you were able to find the excerpt from the original sutra.

所行非常，

謂興衰法夫生輒死，

此滅為樂，

譬如陶家，埏埴作器，

一切要壞，人命亦然！

However in the version I gave you, "所行非常", I think this I don't take it as "life". In Buddhism there are the 5 skandas (五蘊 / or five aggregates) which are the forms(rupa), the feeling (samjna), the thoughts (vedana), the impulse (samskara), the consciousness (vijnana). In this case, it is revering to the " impulse" , which is will, intention, or the mental function that accounts for craving. The power of formation potential. It is also understood as all of the general mental functions not included in the skandhas of feeling or perception. These powers of formation potential is in constant formation and decay. The termination of "this" formation and decay is the ultimate bliss (but here, in the poem he does not state "nirvana", though nirvana connotes the idea of cessation of formation and decay).

But here, the Chinese explanation that you are giving me is very important and useful as to decipher the whole meaning of the poem. Would you like to rearrange the translation?

Thanks a lot for the hard work!!

[insight]

Hi, Studentyoung!

Thanks a lot for your help and you really made a lot of efforts in understanding these verses. Thanks for giving me a big hand

I made a slight change. Pls take a look and see if there's any thing to be changed.

My take is :

大慈與一切眾生樂，大悲拔一切眾生苦；大慈以喜樂因緣與眾生，大悲以離苦因緣與眾生。譬如有人，諸子繫在獄中，當受大辟。其父慈惻，以若干方便，令得免苦是大悲；得離苦已，以五所欲給與諸子是大慈。

The great mercy is to bring happiness to all the sentient beings, while the great compassion is to liberate all living beings from suffering. The great mercy is taking happiness as its causes and conditions, while the great compassion is taking liberation as its causes and conditions. Like someone’s son is imprisoned and will soon be executed. The father is merciful who provides many expedient methods to liberate them from suffering, this is called the great mercy. Once they are liberated from suffering, they are given the five desires, this is called the great compassion.

The translation you made is according to the hidden message. I just try to comply with the literal meaning of the text.

May be you have a better suggestion ?

[imron]

Merged these two threads, with the idea of maybe making this one big long continuing thread. If you would like to post/translate/discuss a buddhist sutra, this is the place to do it

[insight]

Thank you, Inrom!!

[insight]

Does anybody kow how to translate 息慮凝心?

息=rest

慮=anxiety

凝=concentrate

心=mind

My take is "cessation of anxiety and mental concentration". Does anybody have a better suggestion?

[studentyoung]

啊——！一点一点，慢慢来吧。（让我喘口气！呼~ ~ ！）

1.

However in the version I gave you, "所行非常", I think this I don't take it as "life".

OK, if you check "所行"http://www2.fodian.net/fodict_online/ , you will get this ->

(1) That which is practiced; the method that is actualized; the complement of 能行. (2) The actual state of things; their way of being. (3) That which is composed; that which is compounded (sam!ska^ra). (4) The formulation of the content of cognition. (a^ka^ryate)［瑜伽论 T 1579.30.279-280］

2.

Does anybody kow how to translate 息慮凝心?

If you check “息虑凝心” on http://www2.fodian.net/fodict_online/ , you will get this->

（术语）制妄念妄想而凝心思惟也。

My take is "cessation of anxiety and mental concentration". Does anybody have a better suggestion?

（术语）梵音sam&amacron;dhi，旧称三昧，三摩提，三摩帝。译言定，正受，调直定，正心行处，息虑凝心。心定于一处而不动，故曰定。正受所观之法，故曰受。调心之暴，直心之曲，定心之散，故曰调直定。正心之行动，使合于法之依处，故曰正心行处。息止缘虑，凝结心念，故曰息虑凝心。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%CF%A2%3B%C2%C7%3B%C4%FD%3B%D0%C4&url=http%3A//blog%2Esina%2Ecom%2Ecn/u/498718e601000aw8&p=9a338f16d9c05aff57ec8f6f13&user=baidu

My translation is “Ceasing paranoia while meditating”.

3.

The great mercy is to bring happiness to all the sentient beings, while the great compassion is to liberate all living beings from suffering.

The word“大慈与一切众生乐，大悲拔一切众生苦；” is well translated, especially translated “众生” into “all the sentient being”.

4.

The great mercy is taking happiness as its causes and conditions, while the great compassion is taking liberation as its causes and conditions.

The word “大慈以喜乐因缘与众生，大悲以离苦因缘与众生” is well translated, especially translated “因缘” into “causes and conditions”. However, I think “离苦” is not liberation, but help sb. out of sufferings. In this case, I think “salvation” would be better.

5.

The father is merciful who provides many expedient methods to liberate them from suffering, this is called the great mercy.

The original word is諸子繫在獄中，當受大辟。其父慈惻，以若干方便，令得免苦是大悲. “大悲” should be “ the great compassion”, not “the great mercy”, according to your previous words. However, I still feel very glad to see you translated “方便” into “expedient methods”. Great!

Thanks!

[insight]

Hi, morning!

Dear Studentyount!

1.The second one where it says 息慮凝心:

I think in 息慮凝心 you shouldn't use the word paranoia. This word means: A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason, which when you translate into Chinese may be means [醫]偏執狂;妄想狂 . Here 慮 is another synomyn for affliction, which is equal to the Sanksrit word klesa. When you are practicing Buddhadharma, you are trying to do away with klesa. Those drifting thoughts are the results of the afflictions and the focus is achieved by the elimination of distractions.

But I am not that satisfied with my translation either. I hope someone else comes up with a better offter

2. The Chinese words 慈 and 悲 come from the Sanskrit metta and karuna. Metta means to give happiness and karuna means to liberate from suffering. What if I translate metta as "loving-kindness" and karuna as "compassion" ? Will this sound better?

I am trying to figure out the correct word in English. For examle 無緣大慈 同體大悲 This is quite hard to translate into English. I think I just translate it as unconditional loving kindness and universal compassion or somtheing like unconditional compassion and empathy.

Has anybody got a better suggestion!!

This really rakes my brain

[insight]

Hi, I forget to ask does anybody have any idea of how to translate 禪機 and 打禪機?

I take 禪機 as subtleties of Zen

But this sounds odd. Any better suggestion? !! Ooops!!

[studentyoung]

If you check “息虑凝心” on http://www2.fodian.net/fodict_online/ , you will get this->

Quote:

（术语）制妄念妄想而凝心思惟也。

1.The second one where it says 息慮凝心:

I think in 息慮凝心 you shouldn't use the word paranoia. This word means: A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason, which when you translate into Chinese may be means [醫]偏執狂;妄想狂 .Here 慮 is another synonym for affliction, which is equal to the Sanksrit word klesa.

Hehe, insight, you are so smart! Yes, you are right that “妄想狂” and “偏执狂” are exactly what I want to express, because 虑 here, in my opinion, means “A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason” , i.e. 妄念妄想, also a psychological affliction. In my opinion, in most cases, those afflictions mentioned in Buddhism are those psychological disorders.

无缘大慈:

佛具大慈心，虽与众生无缘，但是也发大慈心而救渡之。

http://www2.fodian.net/fodict_online/

同体大悲

指观一切众生与自己同一体，视他人的痛苦就是自己的痛苦，而生起拔苦与乐、平等绝对之悲心。

http://www2.fodian.net/fodict_online/

I am trying to figure out the correct word in English. For examle 無緣大慈 同體大悲 This is quite hard to translate into English. I think I just translate it as unconditional loving kindness and universal compassion or somtheing like unconditional compassion and empathy .

I prefer the later one, especially the word “empathy” (“共情” which is one of the crucial standards and conditions to be a good psychological consulter). My translation is unconditional compassion and integrality-like empathy.

This really rakes my brain:help

I feel the same. Hehe.

Thanks!

[insight]

Hehe! Studentyoung!

You didn't recomend anything on 禪機 or 打禪機.....

By the way, paranoia is the mental or psychological disorder. But according to my understanding of Buddhism, 慮is referred to the mental disturbances, the disturbances that ordinary people encounter in their daily life. Not neccessarily those that are psychologically disturbed. This word means the affliction.

How about 禪機 or 打禪機.....

I have thought about an alternative....

To be continued....

[HashiriKata]

How about 禪機 or 打禪機.....

禪機: the use of symbolic language or gestures by a Zen monk to teach Buddhism.

打禪機: to teach Buddhism by way of 禪機.

(Besides this meaning, I think 打禪機 also has a popular, non-Zen meaning.)

(PS: The above are my own definitions as I couldn't find them anywhere. I will be delighted to see something more official or better certified )

[insight]

Dear Friends,

禪機: the use of symbolic language or gestures by a Zen monk to teach Buddhism.

打禪機: to teach Buddhism by way of 禪機.

(Besides this meaning, I think 打禪機 also has a popular, non-Zen meaning.)

These Buddhist terms are really hard to translate. But I've got an idea of how to say 禪機in English. See if I am correct and if the translation is good :

For 禪機 I translate it as Zen cue(s)

For 打禪機 I translate it as to throw the Zen cue(s)

Does anybody else have a better suggestion?!!!

In the Dharma,

Michelle

p.s.: Does anyone have any idea of how to say "惦惦吃三碗公" or "身藏不露"?

[studentyoung]

For 禪機 I translate it as Zen cue(s)

For 打禪機 I translate it as to throw the Zen cue(s)

Does anybody else have a better suggestion?!!!

I think yours are good enough. Hehe, I just offer mine for your reference.

禅机： Zen wits

打禅机：Enlightenment of Zen wits or to enlighten the Zen wits

开悟的与否并不是用语言，用形体就能体现出来的！开悟的老和尚试问对方的每一句话都含有禅机在里面！理解一句话其中的含义，开悟与不开悟的人领悟，回答，表情都是不同的！也就是说，是在测验你的开悟与否！还有几个开悟的老和尚，大德们在一起试禅！互问言语互试禅机！又称打禅杖，试禅风，打禅锋！

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/24131150.html

Thanks!