ni3 hu2tu le ba?

[leosmith]

My tutor wrote this sentence for me:

ni3 hu2tu le ba? = Are you confused?

Can anyone explain the use of ba here? Can't the sentence be "ni3 hu2tu ma?" or "ni3 hu2tu le ma?" (please answer in pinyin)

Thanks.

[furyou_gaijin]

My completely uneducated guess is that 'ba' in this context is similar to the English 'isn't it?', or 'innit?', as they say in London. I.e., not really a question but more of a confirmation of what the speaker already strongly believes to be the case.

Whenever I'm in China, I hear 'shi ba?' a hundred times a day so this is where my understanding is derived from.

Grammar books that I have consulted so far remain blissfully silent on the subject...

[Stefani]

My Chinese teacher explained the difference between "ba" and "ma" this way:

"ba" is used when the person is almost sure (75% sure) that it is the case (you are confused in the example you gave).

"ma" is for a question, so not quite sure or just simply asking.

Did you look obviously confused?

[threejay]

ba 吧 is usually used to 'soften' the meaning of the question. If the one who asks you something wants to either be polite or amiable, he/she'll use ba. This is considered less 'rude' than the usual ma-questions, especially if the subject is seen as personal or intimate.

[leosmith]

My completely uneducated guess is that 'ba' in this context is similar to the English 'isn't it?', or 'innit?', as they say in London. I.e., not really a question but more of a confirmation of what the speaker already strongly believes to be the case.

Of course, like in shiba and duiba (slaps his forehead)! Doh!

Did you look obviously confused?

Heh heh. Probably, but it was a skype session without cameras, so she's got good intuition.

[adrianlondon]

What's the character for "hu2"?

[muyongshi]

糊涂的糊

[adrianlondon]

oo - quick and unambiguous answer!

I asked because Wenlin gives three alternatives ...

糊涂

胡涂

囫突

[ChineseSpeaker]

"ba" and "ma" hints different meaning for we native Chinese.

ni hu tu le ba = I am afraid you are confused

ni bu tu le ma = are you confused

[ChineseSpeaker]

糊涂 is an HSK word, while 胡涂 is not an HSK word, that means 糊涂 is used more frequently than 胡涂

[muyongshi]

Also there is a history behind the word 胡涂 that will explain why it is an alternative.

Such words as 胡说，胡走，等 all have the same origination and that is from the 胡 people way back in the day. (I think there was a post recently on this but I can't find it...) the mandarin people didn't like them and so it was an insult to them. And then they got adopted into common usage (this is the brief history of it).

But that is why it is an alternative. the "correct" one is 糊涂 because when you look in the dictionary at 胡涂 (at least a nice one haven't looked at some smaller ones) will refer you back to 糊涂. Hope that clears it up.

But I don't know why wenlin says 囫突. It's not in the dictionary. Could just be a commonly used alternative but is not right.

[HashiriKata]

But I don't know why wenlin says 囫突

Even a mistake, when repeated often enough, will be seen/accepted as standard. To confuse us even more, here is another version of hutu: 鹘突

[muyongshi]

Even a mistake, when repeated often enough, will be seen/accepted as standard

That's kind of what I was getting at....

Just didn't want to ruin people's trust in the dictionary and so shatter their world!

[adrianlondon]

Wow, thanks very much you smart people!

I have quite a few Chinese friends in Beijing (I use MSN to keep in touch now I'm back in London) but, although they obviously speak Mandarin, they're not too hot on the charatcers. When I ask questions like these, they just say "don't know, just use the first one". Of course, that answer is good enough - it tells me to use the first one - but I'm one of those people who just keeps asking "why?" all the time.

Which is why my Mandarin skills are so poor. I spend so long learning everything! My mathematical brain needs rules and order, whereas my more artistic friends just roll their eyes at me, say "it's a language, just learn it as it's used!" and move on ;)

[muyongshi]

but I'm one of those people who just keeps asking "why?" all the time.

I think this will help you learn it better. Maybe in the short run you will lag because you spend more time on it but languages like everything else are cause and effect so there is a reason for it. Some of those reason you may never actually be able to learn due to time but keep going!

[HashiriKata]

Just noticed that 突 in 囫突 and 鹘突 has one stroke missing (the dot, as in 犬). It seems not possible to output the correct version on my screen and if others experience the same (Does anyone see on their screen the character 突 with a dot?), this could in long term cause the correct version to disappear and the incorrect one to take its place.

[muyongshi]

Mine is the same so it must be the way the forum is set up and the encoding it uses.

[HashiriKata]

Just noticed that 突 in 囫突 and 鹘突 has one stroke missing (the dot, as in 犬). It seems not possible to output the correct version on my screen

Now I can see the correct character (one with the dot) but I'm at work with a different computer. I'll have to check again once I got home to see if the display there is still the dotless character, or whether some admin has done something to put in the correct character (and a big thank if my alternative (last) assumption is correct! ).

[imron]

Maybe it's a font thing. I see it without the dot on my computer too.

[HashiriKata]

Some quick investigation seems to show that the inconsistency is due to Microsoft (as always ) : I pasted the character in question in MS Word and Notepad. The one in Word comes out with the dot and the one in Notepad comes out without. I also looked at the forum for the same character in both IE6 and IE7. IE6 outputs the dottless version and IE7 outputs the one with the dot. So here we are, Microsoft has been proven guilty!