Why do caucasians love English?

[sthubbar]

I just had an encounter with a German student. I started to speak to him in Chinese and he held up his hand and waved me off to signal me that it was not permitted for a white person to talk to him in Chinese. I should have known better because I know him, but this was the worst instance of it.

The thing that I don't understand is that his Chinese is great. He is getting a degree where all his classes are in Chinese. English is not his mother tongue. What is up with this mentality?

To me, this would be the same as if a Japanese and a Chinese are in America, both enrolled in college and the Chinese walked up to the Japanese and started speaking English and the Japanese said "I will only speak Chinese with you." This example is ridiculous and yet it is the attitude that many foreigners have.

I have encountered this with other foreigners as well. There must be someone on this board who also does not like to speak Chinese with caucasians despite the fact that both individual's Chinese is sufficient to converse.

BTW. I walked away without talking to him.

[Senzhi]

Sad to see this happen.

Sad to see that still too many people in this world do not regard language as a means of communication.

And that's the really what language is: a means of communication so to make yourself understood. The choice of language doesn't matter.

I'm caucasian. Do I love English? No! I love Belgian beer!

(Whas my communication understood? )

[Mugi]

The likelihood that two caucasians mutually speak better Chinese than English is small, so when you do speak in Chinese together it looks/sounds incredibly pretentious to other foreigners and many Chinese, and just plain stupid to other Chinese. It comes down to being good manners and common sense (efficiency) to use the language that between you you are the most conversant in.

When I studied in Beijing, the only caucasians I would speak Chinese with were some Russians whose English wasn't so good. Or of course, if there were other people in the group (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.) whose Enlgish wasn't so good, then the common language would become Chinese.

If your Chinese is near perfect, and the German student's Chinese is clearly better than his English, then you might have a point.

But if you want to practice your Chinese, speak with the locals. You're less likely to pick up bad speech habits that way too.

As for your comparison with Chinese and Japanese in the U.S., it's not quite the same as neither Chinese nor Japanese is a lingua franca between these two peoples, the same way that English is in Western Europe and in fact worldwide.

[heifeng]

You know this really just depends on the people involved.

I remember BNU I was told by a Thai friend that she thought it was odd that a Turkish classmate and I only used Chinese to converse. To that point I never thought it was strange because all of us in the same literature class (including Indonesian, Thai, Korean, American, and Japanese students) were very fluent and Chinese was our only common language. Why, then would I speak to the one other western person in English then? To me this would be rude, and would be totally unnecessary. To be honest, I never even knew if that particular girl even spoke English, or how good her English was if she did. The same thing goes for many of my friends that speak Russian from various former USSR countries. I have no clue how good their English is since we are accustomed to using Chinese when we see each other. If this means we are pretentious then that's fine. Living in China I have learned to not give a what Chinese people or other foreigners think about me or how they look at me, etc.

Secondly, if anything I have run into far more Chinese that are always trying to speak English in my presence than foreigners.

Thirdly, if you go to any college campuses in the west, especially engineering schools, I'll bet you big money that you would see a ton of Chinese graduate students (probably from Tsinghua) herding together only speaking Chinese and making everyone else around them feel uncomfortable. The same thing for the Korean students in Beijing. I can't tell you how many classes I have been in when only the teacher and I were using Chinese and all the Koreans where chatting before, during, and after class in Korean with complete disregard for anyone else.

Therefore I don't think this is simply a question of Caucasians loving English at all. People like to fall back, and use the language that is most comfortable to them, regardless of their environment. AND, they may not necessarily have the same love for native language of the land as someone else might have. If this German student wants to learn Chinese, then perhaps he is doing himself a disservice by using English, but if his Chinese is already great, than whether or not he choses to use it is his own business.

[roddy]

People like to fall back, and use the language that is most comfortable to them, regardless of their environment. AND, they may not necessarily have the same love for native language of the land as someone else might have. If this German student wants to learn Chinese, then perhaps he is doing himself a disservice by using English, but if his Chinese is already great, than whether or not he choses to use it is his own business.

Heartily second that.

I've also been in situations where I've been working in Chinese all day, which when you are stretching your Chinese ability can be extremely tiring. Slipping into a native or preferred language at the end of the day is a bit like taking off your smart office shoes and giving your toes a nice long wiggle. Might not be good for your Chinese, but fine for the soul.

Regardless, I think when you get to a situation of "held up his [hand, I hope. Colt 45?]and waved me off " and "I walked away without talking to him." I think both parties are being a bit stubborn, or perhaps didn't really want to talk to each other anyway.

[sthubbar]

Mugi, thanks for the response. I have heard the "pretentious" argument before. This is my understanding:

PRETENTIOUS

Caucasian + Caucasian speaking Asian language

NOT PRETENTIOUS

Caucasian + Caucasian speaking Caucasian language

Caucasian + Asian (looking) speaking Asian language

Caucasian + Asian (looking) speaking Caucasian language

Asian (looking) + Asian (looking) speaking Asian language

Asian (looking) + Asian (looking) speaking Caucasian language.

So if myself and another Caucasian speak English, French, German, or Italian, even if that is not either of our native languages it is not pretentious. If we were to speak Chinese, Japanese, or Korean it would be pretentious.

Now if I am speaking with someone who looks Asian, they might be American, German, French, or whatever. If the two of us speak English, French German, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, even if that is neither of our native tongues it is not pretentious.

Two Asian (looking) individuals are free to pick any language and not be pretentious.

Is that understanding correct?

Roddy - It was his hand, thanks, I corrected that. I understand about being tired. This is something different.

[roddy]

I think using 'caucasian' like this is unnecessary and you're going to generate more heat than light. It's not an issue of race, it's one of language and culture. Would you or the german guy have reacted differently if either of you were black?

[heifeng]

Roddy - It was his hand, thanks, I corrected that.

Shucks, you already corrected it, I liked this scenario:

held up his [hand, I hope. Colt 45?]and waved me off "

To which, I was thinking, was it the beer or semi automatic pistol?

Option II would definitely have gotten the point across I suppose without as much waving needed...

[yonitabonita]

Yep, agree with Heifeng. The whole of it.

I wonder what the OP would think of native speaking Chinese speaking English to native speaking Chinese. I see a lot more of that go on frankly. Not when I'm by myself - I'm not caucasian, but all the time when I'm with my husband (who is).

y

[gougou]

What I find important in choosing a language is what I spoke with the person in the past. I have a couple of Chinese friends that I met when I just started learning, so back then I would speak English to them. If now I try to speak Chinese with them, it feels really weird, like I'm talking to a stranger. Similarly, if a Chinese person that I had been speaking Chinese with since the start suddenly wants to talk in English, that doesn't feel right either - even though I am not as secure in Chinese as I am in German or English.

[roddy]

Also, there's evidence that we have slightly different personalities for different languages. Perhaps this guy knew he was a nicer person in English than in Chinese and was just trying to do you a favor. And I'm only half joking.

Anyway, given that you know this guy, why not send him a link and invite him along to tell us what he thinks.

[skylee]

Anyway, given that you know this guy, why not send him a link and invite him along to tell us what he thinks.

This is clever.

[david1978]

Why do caucasians love English?

Why is this the most ridiculous title for a thread...ever?

The likelihood that two caucasians mutually speak better Chinese than English is small, so when you do speak in Chinese together it looks/sounds incredibly pretentious to other foreigners and many Chinese, and just plain stupid to other Chinese. It comes down to being good manners and common sense (efficiency) to use the language that between you you are the most conversant in.

Thank you, Mugi. I think if a Westerner started speaking Chinese to me, I'd walk away too. Sthubbar, you should probably consider how stupid you must have looked.

[Lu]

Why is this the most ridiculous title for a thread...ever?

Agreed. I don't love English, to me English is just a tool. (Which is also one of the reasons I won't teach it.)

OP: has it occured to you that perhaps the German didn't think your Chinese was good enough for intelligent conversation? I seem to recall that in another thread you said you're a beginner.

Also, when talking to a foreigner, people tend to speak the best common language. If one speaks the other's native language, that language is spoken. If none speaks the other's native language, they go for the second language they both speak best. In your case, if the German's English is better than your Chinese, and his Chinese better than your German, English is the BCL for you two and best fit for conversation.

This even apart from the 'pretentious' reason, which you can ignore if you wish.

[imron]

If two westerners have a decent level of Chinese, I see nothing pretentious about them speaking together using Chinese. I've done it on many occasions and will continue to do so in the future. Of course if the person didn't have a reasonable level of Chinese, or didn't feel comfortable using it, or if it's someone I've traditionally only spoken English with then I'd probably speak with them in English, otherwise I see no reason not to use Chinese.

Chinese, like any other language is a tool for communication, and I find it far more pretentious for people to advocate that the language you speak should be determined by your ethnicity

[jonaspony]

sthubbar,

He won't be the last stuck-up prat you meet. You gotta love 'em.

A friend of mine used to say "Without the wankers you are nothing".

Talk to anyone - any way you want. Mix it up if you like. People who don't want to listen probably have nothing to say worth hearing. Try speaking to him with a Scots accent - it's halfway between the motherland and fatherland.

cheers.

[david1978]

Chinese, like any other language is a tool for communication, and I find it far more pretentious for people to advocate that the language you speak should be determined by your ethnicity

This is a gross oversimplification of what language is. With all due respect, this is, frankly, an ignorant statement. Language is not merely a tool for communication. Language is a source of identity; language is history; language contains cultural values and beliefs; language is shaped by the dominant religions of a particular society; language both shapes and is shaped by culture; language, if the genetic theories are correct, may, in some ways, even tell us about our ancient ancestors.

What few nuggets I've tossed out do not even begin to explain the significance of language and its effects on social development.

What irritates me is that all you guys who look down upon any Westerner who cherishes and values his own history and language as a bigot or zealot, will endlessly admire the ethnocentricity and, basically, cultural chauvinism and supremacism of the Chinese. To me, this is a pathetic double standard.

[cdn_in_bj]

I wonder what the OP would think of native speaking Chinese speaking English to native speaking Chinese.

I remember one time I was out having dinner and at the table next to ours there was a group of Chinese fitting the description of "young professionals". You know, well-dressed, looking like they just got off of work. Anyways, I could hear their conversation clearly and not only did their conversation include the odd English word, they would also drop whole English phrases in the middle of or at the end of their sentences. And it wasn't just one person doing it - they were all doing it. I don't know if this is just young professional speak but I could understand everything they were saying (the Chinese as well as the English parts) and to me it seemed very strange. Looking at it another way, it's sort of like listening to a non-native Chinese speaker who uses chengyus far too often.

[roddy]

What irritates me is that all you guys who look down upon any Westerner who cherishes and values his own history and language as a bigot or zealot, will endlessly admire the ethnocentricity and, basically, cultural chauvinism and supremacism of the Chinese. To me, this is a pathetic double standard.

Where did that come from? Are we reading different threads?

I don't know if this is just young professional speak but I could understand everything they were saying

Pretty much - it's an in-group, we are educated professionals, thing. 夹中夹英 I think it's referred to as. Can be a bit grating I find, but I'm not in that in-group.

[wushijiao]

I think the biggest issue here is the issue of privacy. When we are talking to someone else, not only do we want to speak the language that we will both be able to use to our highest level of competency, but we also don’t want to be eavesdropped on by everyone, or at least, eavesdropped on by the lowest number of people. This doesn’t apply to the classroom, but if you are on a bus in China, many people might be starring at you anyway (if you are non-Asian), if you start speaking Chinese to someone, I almost guarantee, everyone will listen in. If you speak English, most likely the vast majority won’t be able to follow what you are saying. For example, my wife, who is in Llahsa right now, gave me a call while I was in a small, crowded jiaozi restaurant. She started off in Chinese, but I basically had to yell because the signal was bad, so I immediately switched over to English. It just would have been slightly awkward to have done otherwise. But in the US, we often did the opposite.

On the other hand, this makes me think of all those people who do language pledges, or self-imposed language pledges. I had an old gringo friend like that who did that with Spanish when I was studying done in Chile. He refused to speak anything other than Spanish. Even if you said something to him in English, he’d reply in Spanish. Most of my friends felt that his self-imposed policy was unnecessarily awkward, but at the end of the year, he improved probably more than anyone else, especially in terms of his accent and speaking ability. So there is something to be said for the people who don’t give a damn about all these odd, semi-formal social conventions!