Why is it important to know what tone you're hearing?

[leosmith]

I can pronounce words well when I see the pinyin or when imitating. When I'm listening, I have no problems confusing words having the same pinyin but different tones. But when I hear a word, I'm not able to quickly identify the tones for it.

Here's an example. I did the FSI pronunciation drills. The only ones I missed were "identify the tones". And single syllable aren't much of a problem. It's the 2 syllables that I'm really bad at. What they do is read a word in Mandarin, and I have a few seconds to name the tones. My scores are something like this:

2-syllable words: 50%

1 syllable words: 80%

all other drills: 95%+

If I take the time to pronounce the different possibilities in my head, I get it right. But there isn't enough time; I'm not automatic. The same thing happens to me when my skype tutor asks me to write the pinyin. If I don't sound it out, I do poorly.

I'm considering focusing on this problem. But I wonder if it's important. Your thoughts, and if you feel it's important, suggestions on how to fix it are appreciated. (please include pinyin in your answers, as I don't know characters)

[gougou]

I can pronounce words well when I see the pinyin or when imitating.

How are your tones when you are speaking freely?

[gato]

If I take the time to pronounce the different possibilities in my head, I get it right. But there isn't enough time; I'm not automatic. The same thing happens to me when my skype tutor asks me to write the pinyin. If I don't sound it out, I do poorly.

Don't worry about. Chinese people can't identify the tones either if they don't repeat the word to themselves and think about it. If there is no time to think, then they would do poorly, too. Try asking your tutor to take the test, for instance. This is analogous to the difference between knowing how to say a word in English and how to spell it. The two skills are not equivalent.

[kudra]

i respectfully disagree with gato. i think for adult learners it will pay off to be able to explicitly identify all tones, i.e. be able to take accurate dictation into pinyin including tones of multi-syllable phrases. later you may drop being explicitly aware. but for early stages you should certainly work for 100% on 2syl dictation with tones.

[bomaci]

I can pronounce words well when I see the pinyin or when imitating. When I'm listening, I have no problems confusing words having the same pinyin but different tones. But when I hear a word, I'm not able to quickly identify the tones for it.

From the above it doesn't seem like you have a problem. If you really want to be able to identify the tones in two-tone syllables (and as you might guess from my earlier post I dont feel this is a very important skill) you should work on tone pairs. I mean listen over and over to all possible two tone combinations and you will learn to identify them. But remember that just because you can identify two tone combinations doesn't mean that you can identify 3 or 4 tone combinations. I can pretty much nail all two tone combinations at this point in my learning but I still get stumped on 3 and 4 tone combinations. But that doesn't matter much to me. As long as I am able to imitate and remember them I am satisfied.

[zozzen]

Gato, pinyin notes are the artificial way to express the language. While many people can't tell the tones by 1, 2, 3, 4, they do recognize the difference when you give a wrong tone. They do it by more natural way rather than accent symbols.

I think you're like suggesting that an English speaker can't identify the KK phonetics. And yes, native speakers are often poor at these language tools.

[leosmith]

How are your tones when you are speaking freely?

Maybe 75%? Far from perfect, but predictable since I'm a beginner. It will take a while to get all my "skills" that I develope at home to come into play in real life.

[DrZero]

I'm with Kudra ... if you're ever going to master Mandarin, you'll have to be able to identify all tones.

[leosmith]

kudra & DrZ,

I'm going to assume you guys are right for foreign learners (although gato makes a very good point). I think bomaci is correct; after mastering 2-syllable words, I still won't be finished. But at least it will be a good start. What do you think of these ideas for fixing my problem:

Idea 1

a) record a set of 10 two syllable words, all the same tone combination

B) make a similar set for each combo (1-1,1-2,1-3,1-4,1-5,2-1,2-2,2-3,2-4,2-5,3-1,3-2,3-3,3-4,3-5,4-1,4-2,4-3,4-4,4-5)

c) play them in order, until I can recognize them

d) randomize them, and test myself

Idea 2

a) record one word for each possible combo (1-1,1-2,1-3,1-4,1-5,2-1,2-2,2-3,2-4,2-5,3-1,3-2,3-3,3-4,3-5,4-1,4-2,4-3,4-4,4-5)

B) play them in order, until I have them well memorized

c) randomize them, and test myself

[gato]

Are you able to identify the tones with more time? My point was that even native speakers need time to identify tones. Usually they need to repeat each character to themselves a few times, or run through the cycle of tones to identify it.

[DrZero]

leo,

I'm not sure if I'm higher, lower, or at the same level as you in Mandarin. My listening comprehension is passable but not great, my speaking is nothing to write home about although I can get the point across in a lot of situations if I need to. My reading.writing are non-existent because I've never focused on that area. I live with a native-speaking wife.

I studied the tones long ago but not in the elaborate matter you have described. I basically got a good feel for what they are, how to pronounce them, how they change in different situations, and that was it. From there on out it's been a matter of just listening and over time, and one gets better at distinguishing them. I may be wrong, but I doubt I would have much trouble transcribing a sentence in pinyin as long as she didn't speak it at lightning speed. Hearing tones in conversation is not something I seriously struggle with. My limitation is vocabulary; perhaps I could transcribe what she said, but I may not know what it means.

When she and her friends are talking and I hear a new word or phrase that sounds interesting, I just ask them to repeat it and I write it on a flash card. If I am not quite sure of the tones, I ask, but a lot of the time that is not necessary.

I guess the point to this long-winded answer is, my opinion is that one should learn the tones somewhat scientifically at first -- don't go for the "ignore tones, just shadow what people say and they'll come naturally in time" approach -- but it isn't necessary to make a university major out of learning tones and tone combinations themselves. Get the basic concept down pat, and after that, continued exposure to the language will take you to the next level.

[DrZero]

Actually, please humor me as I make an analogy.

Say three people want to learn to play guitar.

Person No. 1 site in his room all day and learns scales. Scale after scale after scale. Blues scales, jazz scales, minor scales, major scales, you name it.

Person No. 2 doesn't mess around learning any scales. He/she listens to songs and tries to copy them, playing by ear.

Person No. 3 does both. Spends a bit of time learning some basic scales, then listens to some songs, tries to see how the scales apply, copies them, and maybe experiments with writing some new songs, having seen how scales can be applied to real-world music. As the player progresses in skill, he/she may undertake it to learn even more scales and see how they apply to more complicated music, then incorporate them in his/her own music to make it more interesting.

Who do you think will become the best guitar player? (And please don't anyone tell me about how Eddie Van Halen doesn't know any music theory and yet still shreds like a maniac. In guitar-playing, leanguage-learning and any other endeavor, there will always be virtuosos who can learn in ways everyone else can't.)

To me, tone drills and such things as that are like practicing scales on your guitar (or piano, or flute or whatever). They help, but in a vaccuum, they won't take you to fluency or even proficiency.

[kudra]

Here is a site where you can test tones. i don't know how big a list they have.

http://www.shufawest.us/language/dual-tonedrill.html

The following site

http://classes.yale.edu/chns130/

has tone practice under http://classes.yale.edu/chns130/taTutorial/index.html

I am not an expert, but I think if you got to the point where you were comfortable with 2 syllable combos, like getting 95+%, I'd stop worrying about it. I'd expect at that point there will be other areas on which to focus that will have better payoff for your time, like for example, general flow and rhythm of your spoken Chinese. Getting a feel for which tones can be de-emphasized and and which can't in any particular phrase. Again, I'm not an expert, but I don't think people are taught this per se, (although maybe in specialized pronunciation classes), but it seems you pick it up with exposure.

[jonaspony]

My friend from Henan says that folks there can't tell the difference between the second and third tone. So much of Chinese is about context and redundance. I am surprised to hear that your recognition of two syllable words is less than for one - usually that helps to cement the tone. I would suggest that you drill all your words in the context of a full phrase, linking them with a flexible tone if possible. Something like 一，不，or if it's a third tone, see if it links with an other third tone and practise the same word in context as a second tone.

As your vocabulary builds you should recognise words more easily. Context helps you understand. You learn a lot of words which are NOT that word. I believe the advice given so far has all been correct, you have to practise, but also be very very patient.

I also read, in the China Daily last November/December that a researcher found that the fully-developed brain has difficulty differenciating between Chinese language and music. Because of it's tonal nature, the mind switches off its language identifiers and grooves a spell. This may not be true, but it is true for me - I listen to my girlfriend speak to her sister in a dialect and just bliss out. Good luck with it all.

[leosmith]

Wow - thanks for all the excellent responses.

Are you able to identify the tones with more time? My point was that even native speakers need time to identify tones. Usually they need to repeat each character to themselves a few times, or run through the cycle of tones to identify it.

Yes. Given enough time, I can probably get close to 100%. But it may take me 15 or more seconds. That's too long, don't you think?

To me, tone drills and such things as that are like practicing scales on your guitar (or piano, or flute or whatever). They help, but in a vaccuum, they won't take you to fluency or even proficiency.

Hey, awesome analogy Dr.Z. Yeah, I totally agree.

If I was immersed, I'd probably stop doing any more isolated stuff like this, at least for the time being. Right now I'm trying to do some "damage control" before I go to China in a couple weeks. To start out, I'm going to do a 5 day class over there, and I'd like them to be ok with the prospect of me not focusing much on pronunciation in the classroom. Overall I'm pretty comfy with my pronunciation; this just seems like one little thing I can fix before I leave.

I am not an expert, but I think if you got to the point where you were comfortable with 2 syllable combos, like getting 95+%, I'd stop worrying about it.

Totally agree kudra. I'll check out the links. I was thinking of getting my own made, only because my tutor will soon be out of work. A good drill should get me out of the woods after 10 min per day for a couple weeks IMO, so I'll give those a try.

I am surprised to hear that your recognition of two syllable words is less than for one - usually that helps to cement the tone.

Me too. Am I the only one who has such a big difference between the single and double syllable wods, or is this natural?

be very very patient

Always good advice. Thanks!

[leosmith]

Hmm....is it fair for such a drill to say incorrect for a guess of 2-3, if the answer is 3-3, and vice versa? In other words, if you don't know the word, can you tell the difference?

[zozzen]

Are you able to identify the tones with more time? My point was that even native speakers need time to identify tones. Usually they need to repeat each character to themselves a few times, or run through the cycle of tones to identify it.

I see your point. It's very common to run through the cycle of tones to tell the correct number for a particular tone, but it doesn't mean that they can't identify the tones. Even a minor difference in tones can make a big difference in meaning, and tonal language speakers are sensitive to this. It only takes time to tell tonal number.