aspirated vs. unaspirated b, d, g

[newyorkeric]

I know that unaspirated means that there should be no puff of air after the consonants b, d, g. But how should I do this? Should my mouth be shaped differently than when pronouncing English b, d, and g?

Thanks!

[HashiriKata]

aspirated vs. unaspirated b, d, g

Where did you hear this? I've only heard of aspirated vs. unaspirated p, t, k.

Aspirated p, t, k sound quite close to the English p, t, k, and unaspirated p, t, k sound like (but not the same !) the English b, d, g. If you put your hand in front of your mouth, you can feel a strong puff of air each time you say an aspirated consonant. This puff of air is very weak or even absent when you say an unaspirated consonant.

[newyorkeric]

In FSI Manadarin they discuss aspirated b, d, and g in English vs. unaspirated b, d, and g in Mandarin. It's not obvious to me how to pronounce these sounds without a puff of air.

[adrianlondon]

and unaspirated b is "b"

an aspirated "b" is "p".

Or close ;)

So it's the same as ...

an unaspirated "p" is "b"

and aspirated "p" is "p".

I think the latter terminology is more usually used (it's the system in Taiwan, right? So the capital is "Taip'ei" or something).

[atitarev]

Chinese language doesn't have voiced b, d or g. Pinyin letters b, d or g represent unaspirated voiceless sounds p, t, k (in such languages like French, Spanish, Russian, Japanese). (In English this sounds are slightly aspirated)

Pinyin letters p, t, k convey aspirated, voiceless p, t, k. Similar to English but the aspiration is much stronger.

b-p d-t g-k

p-pʰ t-tʰ k-kʰ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_phonology#Initials

The difference between c and z, ch and zh, q and j is not in voiced/voiceless but aspirated/unaspirated.

The Wade-Giles transcription was based on the fact that voiced consonants are missing in Mandarin.

check this thread:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/10265-basic-pronunciation-questions&highlight=aspirated

and this link:

http://olimu.com/Notes/ChinesePronunciation.htm

[HashiriKata]

So the capital is "Taip'ei" or something

Until your post, I've never seen anything like "Taip'ei". Are you deliberately confusing?

[adrianlondon]

No, I made a mistake ;) The "or something" is adrian-speak for I-don't-really-know.

As it's unaspirated there's no apostrophe.

So it's actually "T'aipei" - the "t" is aspirated to stop it sounding like a "d"

[HashiriKata]

So it's actually "T'aipei" - the "t" is aspirated to stop it sounding like a "d"

I'm glad to see my post useful in some way!

@ newyorkeric,

Regarding your question, people may appear to be offering conflicting information, for the very reason that although using the same b, d or g, they have very different things in mind what b, d or g may stand for, so you should be very aware of this and try to understand/convert. They may be indeed saying the same thing.

[newyorkeric]

Thanks for the replies, but I am still a bit confused.

atitarev writes:

Pinyin letters p, t, k convey aspirated, voiceless p, t, k. Similar to English but the aspiration is much stronger.

Pinyin letters b, d or g represent unaspirated voiceless sounds p, t, k

Using b as an example. Pinyin b is an unaspirated Pinyin p? But doesn't a Pinyin b sound similar to an English b? Or am I tricking myself into hearing the English b sound in Pinyin b?

Making p, t, and k more strongly aspirated seems easy for a native English speaker. But I still don't understand physically how to make a p less aspirated since I am used to pronouncing it aspirated in English.

[atitarev]

Pronouncing Pinyin B as English B is not a huge mistake and you will be understood. It is better than making it sound like English P, which has some aspiration in it. Still to be exact, there is no voice in Chinese B, it sounds like or very close to French P (unaspirated) (or Italian, Spanish, Russian, Japanese for that matter).

It's hard to explain, you need to listen closer to native pronunciation, you will hear than Chinese B, D, G are much lighter than English counterparts. Don't trust your eyes but your ears Look at B, say P (unaspirated).

Have you also checked that link?

http://olimu.com/Notes/ChinesePronunciation.htm

Apologies for reposting but this site explains better than I do.

As I said before, older transcriptions didn't use B, D, G - P, T, K but P-P', T-T', K-K' pairs, better rendering pronunciation from the Westerners' point of view but I still prefer Hanyu Pinyin.

[newyorkeric]

Don't trust your eyes but your ears

Hehe, that's my problem --- I can't trust my ears yet.

Thanks for the help, atitarev. Your explanations have been very helpful.

[Altair]

Making p, t, and k more strongly aspirated seems easy for a native English speaker. But I still don't understand physically how to make a p less aspirated since I am used to pronouncing it aspirated in English.

Making this distinction is indeed hard, even though these sounds are actually common in English. The problem is that they occur in special circumstances that are not applicable to the structure of Chinese syllables.

Here are some situations in which I, as a native speaker of English, use unaspirated "p," "t," and "k":

In "spy," "sty," and "skill"; but not in "pie," "tie," or "kill."

Normally, in "ripping" and "looking"; but not in "rip," "ping," "look," or "king." In final position, such as in "rip," "set," and "look," I also commonly leave the "p," "t," or "k" unreleased. For the "t" in the middle of words like "sitting," I normally use an unaspirated flap that sounds like a Spanish "r" or the "dd" in English "ladder." If I try to clearly enunciate a "t," I am more comfortable using an aspirated "t" than an unaspirated one, but either is possible.

To train yourself to make and hear the differences, hold your fingers or a candle flame right in front of your mouth and note the differences between these sequences:

1a. It's pie

b. It's spy

2a. It's tar

b. Its star

3a. It's key

b. Its ski

If you prolong the "S"s equally, you can isolate the difference in aspiration. You will know when you have it when you can actually reverse the pronunciations. If you are a native speaker, you should definitely hear the difference when the pronunciations are reversed from their normal values.