Difference between wén and huà ?

[SilverTab]

Hi there! I'm an (absolute) beginner at Mandarin, I just started on the Pimsleur Mandarin course. I like it so far, but after doing only 1 lesson, I came up with a question that the tape didn't quite make clear

What is the difference between:

wén(文) as in Yīngwén (i.e. English Language)

and

huà(话) as in pŭtōnghuà (i.e. Mandarin, The common language)

From what I gather, both mean language? But when should one be used instead of the other?

Thank you!

Also, quick question, [which will be easily answered with a quick search, and if it isn't you can start a new topic, hence deleted. Roddy]

[violetpurple]

hi.

every chinese character may have many means.

the chief means as follow.

wén(文) may be means:character, civil, gentle, language, paint over, writing.

(i.e. English Language) means letter, eg. Chinese Language(中文), Spanish Language(西班牙文). writen.

huà(话) may be means: saying,word.

(i.e. Mandarin, The common language) (普通话).verbal, unwritten, spoken language.

[SilverTab]

On the same topic:

I know that you can use zhong1wen2 for chinese language...

is zhong1wen2 more common than pu3tong1hua3 ? are both acceptable?

[ChineseSpeaker]

As a native Chinese speaker, I summarize the thumb rule as below:

文、语 and 话 have same meaning in this case:

the minor difference among them is:

1) 文 means character, it indicates a wirtten form of a language

e.g 这本书是用英文写的 means "This book is written in English language" (written form)

2) 话 means what someone talks or says, it emphasizes listening and speaking

Mandarin is called putonghua, the reason is it eamphasizes it is a pronunciation system of chinese

Shanghainese is called Shanghai hua, the reason is it emphasizes it is a dialect of Shanghai

[HashiriKata]

From what I gather, [wén and huà] both mean language? But when should one be used instead of the other?

My advice is, just use the combinations you find them in (such as zhong1wen2, pu3tong1hua4, etc. ), and don't try to make up combinations yourself, especially when you're still at the initial stage of learning.

is zhong1wen2 more common than pu3tong1hua3 ? are both acceptable?

Yes, they're both acceptable. They have slightly different meanings and contexts of use: "zhong1wen2" is used when the opposite may be English, Japanese, etc., whereas "pu3tong1hua3" is used when the opposite may be other Chinese dialects.

[Stefani]

If I may take it a little further, if "wen" is for written language, then is it wrong to say "wo bu hui shuo Zhongwen"? which I tend to say and I have heard it elsewhere.

Xie xie (duibuqi, no Pinyinput on this computer )

[HashiriKata]

If "wen" is for written language, then is it wrong to say "wo bu hui shuo Zhongwen"?

One of the meanings of "wen" is for written language, however, it doesn't stop "Zhongwen" to mean the Chinese language in general. So, you can certainly say "wo bu hui shuo Zhongwen".

[SilverTab]

I just wanted to thank you all for the useful advices! It's really appreciated!

[Mugi]

So, you can certainly say "wo bu hui shuo Zhongwen".

没错。但不止你一个人不会说中文，世界上没什么人会说中文。人只能看、写某文。

Joking aside, technically you shouldn't say "shuo XXXwen" as any native Chinese language teacher will attest. However, many native speakers do in fact use "shuo" with "wen". A compromise that satisfies all is to drop the "shuo" - "wo bu hui Zhongwen 我不会中文".

[zozzen]

The use of Wen(文), Hua (話) , Yu (語) is more idiomatic than grammatical. I think we better not to take the minor differences too serious.

Putonghua is always Putonghua, but not Putongyu

Zhongwen can only be written in Zhongwen, but not Zhongyu

If you really want to mean "the speech of Chinese", then use Zhongguohua instead of Zhonghua

The ambiguity is due to the fact that "language" is a rather Western concept to Chinese. We've had a word for speech (語) and writing (文) for a long history, but only when "modern" linguistics was introduced in recent centuries, the word "語文" was combined to express the concept "language" in that sense.

However, when we address a particular language, we still use an old day expression. That's why sometimes we call a language "語", sometimes "文". And "話" (Hua) is most common to refer to a dialect, like Cantonese, Shanghaiese or Beijingese.

The rule of this can be even more sophisticated because Chinese has many idiomatic way to simplify a nation's name.

For example,

Portuguese can be 葡萄牙文, 葡萄牙語, or in simplified form 葡文 or 葡話, where 葡 is a common simplified name for Portugal.

However, English should be 英語 or 英文. Although 英格蘭語 or 英格蘭文 is possible, no one uses the long form today.

More complicated, Spanish must be 西班牙文 or 西班牙語, but never say "西語" or "西文".

These idiomatic usages are just so challenging to learners.

[chinlearner83]

I've definitely seen 中语 before (but not often), and I'm not sure if it was referring to 汉语／中文。

[zozzen]

chinlearner, I've googled the term "中語" and you're right. Someone really uses Zhongyu to refer Chinese. Although it's a seldom used term, it shows how idiomatic use can trap native speakers.

[Ari 桑]

I would say that 话 is the easiest to use in many situations. For example, while americans and brits both speak 英语 or 英文, you can differentiate by saying 美国话 and 英国话, refering to american english or british english. You could say 波士顿话 too, meaning boston accent.

You always say 一个人说的话 or 一个地方的当地话。The speach of a person or place. 语 and 文 are more formalized.

[muyongshi]

I've always been taught that the 语/话 refers mainly to the spoken aspect of the language and is a bit less formal whereas the 文 is all encompassing of written and spoken and is a bit more formal.