Practicing Chinese with Chinese is impossible!!!

[beijingbooty]

I travelled through Beijing by myself for 2 weeks every day out and about walking the streets. Only once did a chinese person come up and want to practice english.

I am not a threatening looking person, and I expected more people to come and practice english with me.

The only people that approached me were con-artists and sales people.

Oh, I did get some people who would purport to be students wanting to practice english, and after 5 minutes of conversation they would reveal their true purpose by saying come along with me, we know a great art gallery with very special prices..... time to tell them to piss off.

[Tsunku]

I live in Kunming. Most people here can't speak English. Those who do speak some English are often just as eager to practice it as I am my Chinese. I sometimes get annoyed when Chinese people refuse to speak Chinese with me, but I also try to keep it in perspective. Most Chinese have very little opportunity to actually speak English, so I try to be patient when they want to try. I teach English majors and some of them have never even spoken to a native speaker besides myself.

If you live in China, there are certainly opportunities to speak to people who don't speak English at all and who will be grateful if you can speak Chinese. There's no need to get pissed at the waiter in McDonald's who just wants to practice a few words of English. I like to speak Chinese, and I like people to know I can speak Chinese, but what's the point in making a fuss over petty things like that? Is it out of a desire to make a public display of your Chinese skills? If your Chinese is good enough to actually converse, there have got to be people around whom you can converse with. I don't think it has anything to do with being ashamed to speak Chinese. Most Chinese I know are extremely proud of their language in fact. If they're speaking English to you its because they want the practice. There are lots of Chinese people who don't care at all about English and who have no desire or interest in learning it, speak to them, not the English learners.

And as for Asian-Americans, I've had the same experience trying to speak Spanish with Latin-Americans. If you speak a language other than English to someone who is an American, you run the risk of it seeming as if you doubt their English skills, as if someone non-white couldn't possibly speak good English. Even if its not meant as an insult at all, it could be construed that way, simply because lots of people do make such assumptions. I had an Asian American friend with perfect English who was thrown into an ESL class because she failed a few classes in high school. So being careful is a good thing.

[chris.]

I live in an english speaking country. When i speak to my chinese friends in chinese some of them reply in english and other reply in chinese, if i cant understand their reply in chinese, they will help me.

I asked one of my chinese friends why when i speak chinese to you do you reply in english? He said he would have to speak slower and other chinese might think he is stupid.

[Lu]

It's not true that you have no life if you let everybody practice their English on you as a foreigner. I'm not a native speaker, but I am white (which in China amounts to the same :-/ ), and people have come to me to practice their English. But not often, and it was never annoying. An English friend thought it was annoying, so when people asked him if he was a native speaker he replied he was from Iceland. Usually, they left then.

In China, when I spoke to other foreigners, I spoke Dutch, English or Chinese, whatever they understood and whatever I felt like speaking. I have spoken Chinese to people who understood Dutch or English very well, and sometimes they replied in Chinese, too. One American in my kouyuclass always spoke Chinese, when I said something in English, he replied in Chinese, so I mostly spoke Chinese to him.

I spoke mostly Chinese with my language partner in China. She never complained, I guess she found it convenient.

The only time language was a problem was with my language partner here. I usually spoke Chinese with him, while he wanted to practice his Dutch. I guess he had a bit of the same attitude as Green Pea.

[sunyata]

when one is studying in china, it is different. I meant if you teach English in China, then you really have to be careful, otherwise you will have a swarm of students who all want to practice their oral English with you.

[Green Pea]

Further thoughts and responses:

--Let me give more details to the yelling story. I go to that coffee shop once a month or so. They know me and speak to me in Chinese and English to which I reply in Chinese and English. There is one guy who only speaks to me in English. Previously, I ordered in English and he SCREWED UP my order because his English is really atrocious. Yes, “Coffee of the day” is pretty hard to mess up, but he did. This particular time, however, so as not to get the wrong order, I ordered in Chinese. He replied in English and yet again was messing it up. His manager was standing behind him saying, “why are you speaking to him in English? You have got the order wrong. He understands Chinese perfectly well.” But, the guy replied again in English with something I didn’t even understand. At that point, I had had enough and barked out a loud “SHENMA?!” Is yelling crude? Yes, and damn effective.

--Gao_bo_han feels “insulted and frustrated”, Lu Yi Si feels it is “very insulting”, while Tsunku will “sometimes get annoyed”. So, you guys let people walk all over you? I refuse to let people treat me this way.

--If someone always replies to me in English, I will rip their head off. Example: I was chatting with a grad student who only replied to me in English. I was doing my part of switching English and Chinese. She wouldn’t. So, I steered the conversation to what I like about China. I said, “I really love China, except for one thing….” “What is that?” she asked curiously. “Well I can’t stand people who always reply to me in English.” KABOOM! That shut her up real fast and she got the message. She has never spoken to me again. Rude, yes, but damn effective; and no yelling required.

--It is actually a very rare situation to have to nail someone. Most Chinese people are simply fantastic and very helpful.

--You know what is really rude? It is when people equate a white face with an English speaker. You are right, Yuchi, Chinese are not mind readers, but some are face readers. No?

--Pretending one doesn’t speak English? No, that doesn’t really work either. My attitude is: I speak English, but I won’t with you unless you speak to me in Chinese.

--Ego trips and other psychoanalysis. Sorry, but don’t confuse ego trips with tactics, ability, and confidence.

--You know what is even ruder? It is when people address a non-Asian foreigner in English and then turn to his Asian friend who doesn’t speak Mandarin and pathetically try and try to get him to understand Mandarin.

--Public Display of Chinese. I have no desire for PDC, but it is result (not a cause) of my confidence to speak Chinese in public situations. I don’t fear speaking Chinese when someone is trying to push me around. If you’re afraid to mix it up, then your Chinese is probably not up to scratch.

--I already do live in a small town deliberately so as to avoid the English piranhas that infest waters of big cities, especially Shanghai.

--Speaking Chinese to Foreigners. I speak English to foreigners all the time. I don’t “insist” they must to speak to me in Chinese. Don’t be silly. However, I do avoid making friends with them and hanging out in packs of English-speaking people. If I am disliked, so be it.

--You know what is the rudest? It is when people think that a non-Asian looking guy is not officially Chinese. I had a tutor who didn’t believe me when I told her this. She demanded to see my ID card. Shock and horror flashed across her face when I produced it. Assumptions can be dangerous.

--To gao_bo_han: hang in there, buddy. Persistence will pay off. Next time you meet that lady, just bash her up. “My Chinese is good? Thank you very much. You are right, it is better than yours because your Chinese always sounds so much like English.” And get yourself to China. You will really love China, except for one thing….but that is changing one by one.

[Lu Yi Si]

Green Pea,

After you have shown more detail than your original post you do sound a little more reasonable.

If you are going to be here for years than there is no rush to learn Chinese. If you are only here for a year or two quite a lot of your effort will be wasted when you return to an English speaking environment, and you naturally forget a great deal of language when you are not using it.

Either way chill out!

[林彪]

Further thoughts and responses:

--Let me give more details to the yelling story. I go to that coffee shop once a month or so. They know me and speak to me in Chinese and English to which I reply in Chinese and English. There is one guy who only speaks to me in English. Previously, I ordered in English and he SCREWED UP my order because his English is really atrocious. Yes, “Coffee of the day” is pretty hard to mess up, but he did. This particular time, however, so as not to get the wrong order, I ordered in Chinese. He replied in English and yet again was messing it up. His manager was standing behind him

.....

because your Chinese always sounds so much like English.” And get yourself to China. You will really love China, except for one thing….but that is changing one by one.

I guess your frustration and anger is pretty similar to what American-born Asian Americans feel when people try to address them in an Asian language. Nobody likes it when people make a judgement about you based on your facial features. (I.E. This person has black hair and almond eyes, so he must understand when I yell "Konnichiwa" at him. Or, this person has blond hair and blue eyes, so he must be only capable of understanding English).

[Yuchi]

Perhaps I'm slow as to why you yelled at the guy?

Even though the guy knows you (from past visits?), the rarity of someone speaking chinese as stated in this thread, is about the same as the rarity of an occasion where he gets to use english.

Face readers, oh yes, I find that lots of chinese tend to be racial (my relatives never use "black person", they use "black monster/demon/whatever"), we assume in situations that are unknown to us.

I find it odd that you chose "shen ma!?" Unless I'm simulating the wrong tone in my mind..

[林彪]

I find it odd that you chose "shen ma!?" Unless I'm simulating the wrong tone in my mind..

I think he means "什么"

[Tsunku]

Thanks for the explanation Green Pea. I understand your point actually, I just choose not to get too worked up about it. My roomate is actually a BBC guy who speaks extremely little Chinese but perfect English. When I go out with him people will constantly ask him to "translate" for me. It annoys both of us that the people can just make such assuptions based on skin color. However, China not being a heterogenous society means that it wouldn't even occur to most people that an Asian guy could be English. Face reading? Yeah, its not cool at all, but its a fact of life in China.

And to clarify, I also really dislike language leeches. I hate it when someone wants to be my friend just to learn English, or because they want to cultivate guanxi with foreigners. If someone is being rude or demanding, I'll be the first to tell them to piss off, but I try to be as patient as possible with those who just legitimately want to practice. Obviously if the guy at the coffee shop is screwing up your order due to poor English, then he needs to switch to Chinese, but I would hate to see some poor student scared away from ever trying to practice English again because of a bad experience with a foreigner. My students are so timid in the first place (they're mostly from the countryside and many had never even seen a foreigner before they came to Kunming) that I imagine that if anything like that ever happened to them they'd probably be terrified to try and use their English with a foreigner. They need practice to learn, and I encourage them to find people to practice with because I hope that most people would probably be patient and forgiving with them.

[Green Pea]

I appreciate everyone's replies.

Just one more thing I wish to clarify. I am not angry, frustrated, annoyed, pissed, etc. Just the opposite, actually. I am very "chilled". Being a loud, obnoxious, foreigner doesn't get one too far in China. I am very relaxed because I know how to deal with these situations. Frustration likely comes from not knowing how to approach these issues. Effective results don't come from being angry. My tactics might seem aggressive at times, but one should not infer my underlying emotions are out of line.

[gao_bo_han]

Wow! I never thought I would get so many replies. As I said, my previous topics about learning resources and such have gotten next to no replies. Apparently I am not alone in my frustrations.

Green Pea, keep the faith. I think that you ARE angry, annoyed, pissed off, and frustrated...at least when you find yourself in these situations. No need to play it off; in my opinion the guy you yelled at richly deserved it. From what it sounds like, you are willing to cooperate with people who aren't language leeches. I DESPISED walking around the streets of Taipei and being bombarded with pointless English questions. I never yelled at anyone because it simply was not called for. But don't think for a second I let people "walk all over me".

My theory was and is to accomodate people who are themselves accomodating. In my personal experiences, I am accomodating far, far, far more than most Chinese are to me.

Although I think there is some merit that those in China are simply looking for opportunities to practice, theoretically that should not apply in America, where the overwhelming majority of the population knows no Chinese at all, in particular the non-Chinese population. Opportunities are abundant to practice English in America, and surely it is rare that Americans approach Chinese people trying to legitimately speak in Chinese. And yet, the same problem exists here in America as it does in China. Perhaps there is something more to this problem than merely trying to practice?

Anyways, it seems like we all have our opinions here. Beijingbooty, I think that something you said is probably right on the money: Chinese people switch to English with foreigners when they doubt the foreign understands. I should definitely improve my understanding then to avoid these situations, but I will say this: I think Chinese people too often are just looking for an excuse to practice their English. If there is even the slightest sign of a misunderstanding then they immediately switch to English, regardless of their own proficiency. At least that has been my experience, again and again and again. From your posts here it appears that you are fluent in Mandarin; I'm sure it is easier for you then to avoid this trap.

You know what is even ruder? It is when people address a non-Asian foreigner in English and then turn to his Asian friend who doesn’t speak Mandarin and pathetically try and try to get him to understand Mandarin.

This happened to me over and over again, to the great frustration of both myself and my company.

One thing is for sure: learning Chinese for non-Asian, native English speakers is often hampered by this strange phenomena, and will probably only get worse as the status of English continues to move closer and closer to a set-in-stone international language.

I was chatting with a grad student who only replied to me in English. I was doing my part of switching English and Chinese. She wouldn’t. So, I steered the conversation to what I like about China. I said, “I really love China, except for one thing….” “What is that?” she asked curiously. “Well I can’t stand people who always reply to me in English.” KABOOM! That shut her up real fast and she got the message. She has never spoken to me again. Rude, yes, but damn effective; and no yelling required.

Hahahahahahhhahha! Good one.

[Guest nuer]

Short note about the whole Chinese American thing...some people make assumptions that a lot of chinese americans speak mandarin.

Wrong in many cases - most of the overseas chinese are southies and they probably speak cantonese etc. So of course it's annoying when people want to practice mandarin with them. My Bosnian friend gets irritated when people speak english with her just because she is white. It's all pretty silly really...

I am studying chinese in beijing too and I get annoyed because once in a while I get criticized for not being able to speak fluenty. I am 7th generation chinese but I speak English, Indonesian, Dutch, and German but nooooo....你应该会说汉语! But I just sigh and get on with it and just enjoy life in Beijing. Take it easy and I do understand - China is fun at times but crazy frustrating at times as well.

[calibre2001]

Well, take it as a challenge to integrate with the society.

Obviously, its not just the command of the language that's part of the learning. There's a cultural aspect too. If you're successful in assimilating ( i.e. thinking, laughing at the same kind of things, understanding the thinking), then its only a matter of time before you're treated like one of them.

Trust is earned.

[tetsuo500]

Good work Green Pea! Thanks for weeding out some of English bandits for the rest of us. It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it.

I'm all for everyone practicing the languages they're studying, but some people can just get really annoying. I don't mind speaking English or Chinese, as long as I'm having a meaningful communication with someone. Afterall, isn't the whole point of this "languages thing" to communicate and make friends with other people, not just to acquire another language?

I want to practice my Chinese as much as possible, although I don't expect Chinese students who are studying here (in Australia) to speak Chinese with me too much, afterall they are the ones who have made the effort to make their way over to an English speaking country to study. I expect the same kind of treatment when I'm in China.

When in China, I'm willing to speak English wherever it's most efficient. If someone genuinely wants to be my friend I don't mind speaking English or whatever language with them. I'm not going to start basing my friendships around what languages people speak. But I HATE English Bandits so much - the type of people who you can feel are just using you to practice their English, they have no interest in you whatsoever. The types of questions they ask are just so boring and generic, they try to do little things like buying you dinner to show that they're not that shallow when you can see right through them. I had a guy who would always come to my dorm, let himself in while I was in the middle of Chinese study and just start speaking English at me. That soon stopped when I had enough and got all "Green Pea" on his ass. I just stood at the door and wouldn't let him in. He tried to push his way in. I told him a more appropriate place he could locate his person, and exactly where he could relocate his English text book.

Ok, so I wasn't that harsh. But I got my point across pretty clearly and he didn't return. English Bandits do get pretty annoying sometimes, and sometimes you do have to be a little bit rude to get rid of them.

FACE VALUE?

Yeah, I didn't really mind the assumption from nearly everyone that I can speak English because I'm white. That's to be expected. I think the only thing that kind of annoyed me in that kind of circumstance was when some old people came up to me and told me "You're white, you have lots of money, you should give us some money". That got to me. Oh well, this is the way the world is, it makes it more fun.

[lylestyle]

gao-bo-han,

I am curious, what do you do for a living that you speak Chinese at your job?

[pazu]

I'm Chinese and I can speak fluent Mandarin Chinese (my mother tongue is Cantonese). I don't know how fluent is your Chinese but in my personal experience, I always welcome the chance to speak in Chinese with foreigners, only if they can speak good Chinese. Sometimes it's really a pain to try to "practice" Chinese with those foreigners who speak something I can almost understand nothing while we have a much commoner language.

When I was in Lijiang Old Town (Yunnan) I've met a Canadian, he was really a pain (in axx indeed...) and he made a fuss over his "rights" to speak Chinese. He was in a cafe and he talked to a girl in very twisted Chinese, while the girl spoke back to him in English. He insisted to speak in Chinese ONLY, while I could quite understand why the girl preferred the conversation to be in English because the Canadian's Chinese was almost alien... the Canadian man just said (in English of course~) IT WAS A SHAME FOR THE GIRL WHO INSISTED TO SPEAK IN ENGLISH IN HER OWN COUNTRY!

The girl cried. And we all thought the Canadian was an axxhole.

While this is definitely not my intention to say that any posters are like that Canadian man, you have to understand, Chinese is a tonal language, and it can be very hard to understand if you speak it in the wrong tones. If you can't speak it in the right tone, people may tend to reply you in English if they can manage some.

I'm studying Vietnamese now, a difficult language (complex pronunciation), sometimes Vietnamese talked to me in English even when I talked to them in Vietnamese, sometimes people even just signed to reply as if I was a mute. I'm sure it's something about my pronunciation, and indeed so far I haven't yet been angry while I must admit that I don't really have a good temper. I never think it's an insult.

Another story here, it's not exactly the same as the Green Pea's cafe experience.

I had a very brief chance to work in my friend's cafe (not really a job indeed) in Lijiang Old Town, and I've met many foreigners. Most talked to me in English, many of them were white, I knew they're not native speakers, I had no intention to practice my English, but I had to speak to them in English because I had to take the order. It was extremely common that many travellers came in and said NI HAO, then sat down, spoke one or two more Mandarin phrases carelessly chosen from the LP Phrasebook, then the next phrase was probably, "duo shao qian". But some foreigners who were actually able to speak Chinese, came in, without announcing, saying NIHAO. What I saw was that he was a white tourist, and most white tourists can speak no Chinese and manage at least some English, then I talked to him in English, then BOOM, oh he got angry, he just kept yelling "shenme?", I didn't know, I thought he was asking me to explain the food in detail, so I told them something more in English, and again, he said "SHENME!". And then finally with so much frustration he announced that he could speak in Mandarin! The first time I was shocked (not by his Chinese skill) but by his attempt to make a fuss; the second time I met another guy like this I just shrugged my shoulder and asked him how could he expect me to know.

Green Pea, however I understand your frustration if you're Chinese and still treated as a non-Chinese. I helped a Taiwanese nun to translate a Chinese into English for a Rinpoche, I understood it was her urge to have the letter translated perfectly, but I was annoyed when she kept explaining every terms, e.g. 「不知仁波切以為如何。」in the letter, then the nun tried to explain to me 「仁波切」就是rinpoche; 唔……, 「以為」就是覺得, 認為啊; 「如何」就是甚麼的意思…… I told her politely that if I couldn't understand these simple things, there was nothing I could do to help her translation. She got the message, she stopped giving me advice.

[handbus]

I am a Chinese guy who have learnt English for 14 years. I began my english course when I was 9 in the primary school.

Many Chinese people think that with a good grasp of English will help them to find a better job, which means more income. So a lot of Chinese people, especially some well-educated guys with poor oral english, want to improve their pronouncation by chatting with foreigners in English.

Westerners can not distinguish their friends' native language by the appearance, since the westeners may be in the similar features, which also happens to the east Asians including those non-asian borns. But when a westerner is in China, they get different from the others around them and are easily picked out by the local peoples.

Of course a lot of local Chinese people just want to get a convenience in communication by chatting in English. So do I.

I met 4 ABC worried girls in a metro station near my office before the May Day holiday. I just passed by and noticed that they were just discussing in English with their upset on their faces. "Can I help?" I approached and asked. And then they tell me their troubles of losing in the city. Natually I answered them in English and helped them a lot.

On the web, I also help some foreign guys to learn Chinese with a mix of Chinese and English. I do think that there are many people like me in China want to help the foreigners to practise their Chinese. If you use a purposely start of a conversation but not an emergent question for help instead, you will get a good drill on speaking Chinese.

[galitonwu]

你最好把自己的想法直接告诉对方，我想大多数中国人都会配合你的。

当然，你也别光顾着自己联系中文，也多给别人一些练习英语的机会。

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