Arrive without a contract?

[Springbokke]

Hi

As opposed to committing to a contract before arriving in China, is it recommended that one spend a few weeks searching for a preferred position in Beijing (for example) if one can afford the time?

I am stumped as to how to go about this. I have an offer of RMB 9,500 (excluding housing, 40hr week - 20 contact hrs)) from EF Beijing and I am not sure how it measures against other opportunities given my credentials (8 yrs business exp in executive mgmt, MBA, CELTA A). I have read of many great packages but don't seem to come across these online.

Thanks.

[cdn_in_bj]

If you are not getting satisfactory results finding a job here remotely, then it would be reasonable to expect that you would have better luck doing so in person.

It seems like you have your mind set on coming here. Since you mentioned that you have time, why not come here on a visitor visa and then get it switched to a working/business visa once you find a job (ask your employer to assist you with the visa change). Provided you bring a bit of cash, you can come here and take it easy while you look for a job as there's plenty of things to do and see here. In fact you may end up not wanting to work for a while.

I am not sure what kind of position you got an offer for, but if it's geared towards foreigners then I think it's on the low side. Also, what do you mean about by "40hr week - 20 contact hrs"?

[Rincewind]

I thought, that OK at nine and a half, then I saw the excluding house. In Beijing, the houses are expensive. I take it this 40/20 thing is you do 20 hours classroom work with students and a further 20 hours doing other stuff like preparing lessons.

I think there is a lot to be said for coming here then finding a job. Obviously you'll have to come on a tourist visa then get that changed. So a little extra paperwork. However this isn't a society that does things by mail or telephone. Even the most minor things are done face to face so you probably will get better offers or will be able to negotiate better. You will also be able to judge if the school is trustworthy or are they going to rip you off.

[kdavid]

I don't know what anyone's experience on this board is like, but EF has always left a bad taste in my mouth. I haven't heard any good things.

[roddy]

EF are franchised, and so it depends very much on how good your local investor / DOS are and how well they work together. I heard a couple of years back that their head office in Shanghai realized they'd given out too many franchises too quickly and were slowing down for a while. How true that is or how much effect it had I don't know. Beijing you'd hope would be one of the better ones, but EF certainly do squeeze work out of their staff.

Assuming you want to, I think you should be looking at more money than that, by leveraging your business credentials. The set up you have with EF looks like a bog standard teaching job - I might drop them an email and see if they can offer you anything better on the business / corporate side of things.

[kdavid]

To answer your original question: I think you'd get much better finds in-person. Now, depending on your financial situation, you may or may not be able to float around for the month or so that it takes to find a solid deal. The Chinese tend to prefer the face-to-face deal-making as opposed to the online ones. Also, by being on the ground you're more likely to find better jobs that typically don't advertise on the net.

I also agree with Roddy that your qualifications should yield a larger monthly income, with more perks / benefits. EF would certainly be on the lower-paying end of what you could potentially find. Asking 40 hours a week is quite a lot, even if only 20 of it is actual in-class time. You're likely to spend the other 20 hours a week doing grunt work that is completely unrelated to your classes or even qualifications.

[Springbokke]

Thank you all, helps tremendously.

Just to clarify, I did mean 20 contact hours while spending the remaining time preparing (at the school no doubt).

The main part of my question has been well answered though - that given sufficient resources, it is an advantage to arrive and spend some time looking for a position.

I presume I may apply for a Z visa (seems this will add to my negotiating power more than a F visa) without having secured a position, provided I am able of produce the letter of invitation/ authorization?

thanks again.

[Rincewind]

I presume I may apply for a Z visa (seems this will add to my negotiating power more than a F visa) without having secured a position, provided I am able of produce the letter of invitation/ authorization?

You can try but I doubt it. Usually you need to show the contract and some other paperwork to get a Z visa. Just be wary of any school that tries to talk you into working before they get the Z visa and residency permit arranged.

[imron]

I presume I may apply for a Z visa

You presume incorrectly. Firstly, you don't get to specify what type of visa you apply for. The embassy will look at the documentation you provide and issue whatever visa they think is the most appropriate. Secondly, a Z visa is tied to an employer and you won't be able to get the appropriate documentation unless a given employer decides to give it to you (which they probably won't do unless you've agreed to work for them). Finally, should you wish to change employers during your stay, you would need a letter of release from your previous employer before you can legally start work at the new one, which given the above would make it an extra hassle to shop around once you've arrived (it's not unheard of for employers to withold such letters of release out of spite).

A Z visa is the most appropriate when you already have an employer that you will be working for. Otherwise you will have to settle for an F or an L visa.

[Springbokke]

Finally, should you wish to change employers during your stay, you would need a letter of release from your previous employer before you can legally start work at the new one, which given the above would make it an extra hassle to shop around once you've arrived (it's not unheard of for employers to withold such letters of release out of spite).

Thanks for oyu input Imron but I don't quite understand that connection between the "release letter" and the Z visa. Does the latter stand independently of the former, or is the latter contingent on the former?

I have spoken with the Chinese Embasy here in South Africa and the view is that if I have a letter of invitation (say from a university) this may be sufficient to issue a Z visa (not guaranteed though). If this is so, how does the release letter come into play when searching for a job upon arrival - will potential employers want to see a release letter along wiht my Z visa?

[roddy]

First, forget the release letter.

To get a Z visa in South Africa, you will need a letter of invitation. You will only get that if a university or other employer is satisfied you are going to work for them. That Z visa only gets you into the country for 30 days, and in those 30 days you have to get a residence permit, which will require showing that invitation letter, signed contract of employment, health check, a pound of flesh from your firstborn, etc, etc.

So you can't really come in on a Z visa and start looking for work. Even if you did whoever issued you the invitation letter is going to start wondering where you are and when you come to get the residence permit (assuming you find an employer within a month who is willing and able to take you through the Z visa process) it may or may not get flagged up that you have bailed on one employer already.

If you want to do this, your options are basically come in on an F / L visa, find a job and then either work on that visa - dubious, leaves you open to problems - or get it changed to a Z visa - legally solid, but may require some expense and hassle in changing visas / taking a brief trip out of the country - and then go through the residence permit application process.

The release letter comes in later. Once you are with one employer and have your residence permit, that permit will specify who your employer is. If you want to legally move employers the change needs to be registered with the PSB, and they will only do that if your first employer provides a letter saying 'This guy has left us. We know about it. Let him go' to show that you haven't skipped out on a contract, don't owe any money, etc. You don't need to worry about it until you a) have a job and B) want to leave and take another job,

[imron]

According to my understanding (which may or may not be accurate as it's been a while since I dealt with any of this stuff), a letter of invitation from a university is enough to get you an F visa. To get a Z visa, you need a letter of invitation and also a work permit from the State Administration of Foreign Expert Affairs (see here for an example), which the school would apply for, for you.

The situation is made more complex as well given that your Z visa actually only gets you into the country. You then have to get your residence permit within 30 days of entry, and this needs to be done with the employer who applied for your Z visa. It is your residence permit that allows you to stay. Once again, an employer isn't likely to do this unless you will be working for them, because a) it costs them time and money and B) by doing so, you become their responsibility.

If you change employers, then you need to update your residence permit. Certainly your old employer will want to revoke it anyway, because otherwise they are still legally responsible for you. Plus they will probably be quite upset/angry with you if you do this before the end of your contract (see above about spite), because applying for the documention isn't an easy/cheap process. Anyway, in order for the new institution to get your residence permit/cancel the old one, they will need to have the letter of release from your old institution.

A Z visa will also mean that you need to have a medical done before you are issued with your residence permit. With an F visa, you don't need to get a medical (although if you later switch to a Z, you will need to do the medical anyway).

EDIT: Plus everything Roddy said

[Springbokke]

Imron

To get a Z visa, you need a letter of invitation and also a work permit

Absolutely correct - missed that part in the instructions.

Roddy

If you want to do this, your options are basically come in on an F / L visa, find a job and then either work on that visa - dubious, leaves you open to problems - or get it changed to a Z visa - legally solid, but may require some expense and hassle in changing visas / taking a brief trip out of the country - and then go through the residence permit application process.

Thanks for the clarification. Fair enough - seems this approach is prone to possible hassles. Presuming I want to stay on legally solid ground, are these possible hassles in your view worth the advantage of seeking a job in person rather than settling for a contract before departure?

I am more inclined to the relatively risk-free contract approach, but hate the idea of being locked in for 12 months before being able to improve my situation.....given the above posts I am beginning to question whether I am being too greedy here (and creating more problems just to secure a better package which when after all the complications are quantified, is pretty much the same as my original "hassle-free" offer in hand)??

[imron]

Before agreeing to any given offer, it's also a good idea to ask for the contact details of foreign teachers who have worked/are working at the school currently and ask them for their opinion of the place.

Also, given your qualifications, if it's a higher salary you're after, then I imagine you'd be able to find better offers by working in some sort of management position rather than teaching English.

[Rincewind]

I think the advice is still that you are better coming in person than finding a job at a distance. It's not just about better money, it's also about finding an employer who isn't going to cheat you or mistreat you. Face to face is so much better.

Additionally, you will have time to travel a little and so you can choose which city you prefer working in. Some people like Beijing, others prefer Shanghai, yet others hate both of these large cities and prefer somewhere smaller. You have the opportunity to check which you like before you commit to living 12 months in a city you don't like.

Keep the visa stuff simple. Come on a tourist visa, find the job, then get your employer to sort you out with the residency permit. It is not a significant hassle for them to change you form tourist to work. It's quite common place for tourists to decide they fancy working and so need changed.

[Springbokke]

Imron

if it's a higher salary you're after, then I imagine you'd be able to find better offers by working in some sort of management position rather than teaching English

This is true I am sure, but my Mandarin is beginner level (the reason for the relocation) which I understand is a severe limitation for landing management positions on the Mainland.

In any eve I'd prefer to teach. The salary is important insofar as it is the best I can expect to get teaching English/ Business English given my credentials. Thanks for your input though.

Thanks Ricewind - I was hoping this was the case.

Thanks again to all.

[pingpangqiu]

I know someone who teaches at English First in Shanghai and they said you teach for 20 hours and spend the other 20 hours at the school preparing. This is a hassle and not the case at most other schools. Yes you may arrive 15 mins + early to prepare your class, but not 20 hours preparation each week!

Even though you don't speak Chinese you can search the net and find some of the headhunters in Beijing and they might be interested in your experience. Why not go and visit them in person and give them your resume when you arrive. I recommend coming to Beijing with a tourist visa and try to secure something when you get here, especially Business English which can pay 200+ RMB per hour if you are lucky and negotiate well. Then change your visa after your find a job. There are always a number of agencies who can help you sort out your visa, for a fee of course! Alternatively enrol at a University to study Chinese for a semester and look for a job at the same time. In this way you can get a student visa for six months.

[Senzhi]

I was invited to EF in Rizhao ... went there ... and left there the next day ... back to Shantou. EF Rizhao even tried to offer me a sandbag as a pillow on my bed.

China has been a childhood dream for me (please excuse me for not clarifying the details).

After many years of fruitless trying to come here, simply because I'm not a so-called 'native English speaker', I just said 'bollocks' and came here with a Tourist Visa.

I'm glad I did. I found one of the better schools in Shantou, and got a Residence Permit without any major problems. (I was just so stupid to leave again, thinking I could find better with EF )

I'm now back in Shantou.

However, bare in mind rules change quickly. It appears there's a crack down on L/F visas being changed into Residence Permits. Of course, I'm still personally convinced that any good guanxi can still manage a lot ....