Mandarin Regional Differences

[Ari 桑]

Can anyone point me to a source that explains regional differences in mandarin pronounciation? I've been trying to find something along those lines, but so far I can only find comparisons on dialects.

My reason being, I originally studied chinese in beijing, but decided I would rather use a southern accent, from zhejiang, guangdong, or yunnan. When in those places, I can pick up on the regional differences, but its hard to compile them in a concrete way, so I can make sure I'm speaking rationally, and not just making things up.

[anonymoose]

Do you know of a source that explains regional differences in English pronounciation?

I think it's quite difficult to explain regional differences in pronunciation in any language, save for the use of sound files, and even then it would take a lot of effort to compile the neccessary comparative sound clips.

As for mandarin, very generally, southerners tend to pronounce sh as s, and zh as z as has been discussed many times here before. I don't think you will find much else in a lot more detail than this, but I'm happy if anyone can show otherwise.

Besides, why would you specifically want to talk in a southern accent? Unless your chinese accent is very good (which it may be, but I don't know), you're still going to sound like a foreigner regardless of whether you learnt your mandarin in Beijing or in the south, so I don't see the point trying for a specific regional accent.

[trien27]

Mandarin is founded later than most of the other dialects: Cantonese, Fujianese/Foochow dialect, Shanghainese, etc.... Most dialects have between 6-9 tones, yet Mandarin only has 4.

"As for mandarin, very generally, southerners tend to pronounce sh as s, and zh as z as has been discussed many times here before. I don't think you will find much else in a lot more detail than this, but I'm happy if anyone can show otherwise."

They did not intend to pronounce sh as s or zh as z. It is because the regional dialects don't have an "sh or zh" sound, so the people approximate by using the sound closest to Mandarin in their own dialect. Example: in Cantonese the word for "stone" is "sek", which is pronounced "shi" in Mandarin. Occasionally, people would romanized it as "shek", yet still say "sek". Shi/Shek/Sek that I have just mentioned is the Chinese word or the Chinese surname. But this is not always the case: Zhen, one of the Chinese surnames, is "Yan/Yen" in Cantonese: Donnie Yen, martial arts/kung fu fighter: for more information, click here: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0947447/. or Martin Yan, the cook.

As anonymoose just posted "It's very hard to find a source". Besides there's too many dialects, subdialects and sub-subdialects in Chinese. Finding a source that could properly distinguish all these one by one, is very difficult. The reason if you read the history of the Chinese language is that all dialect speakers are unintelligible to each other if you speak different dialects to each other, unless the regions that they're from, are very close to each other. All dialects share a common written language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language

[Lu]

Generally speaking, southerners don't say the retroflexes (zh is z, sh is s, ch is c, and r- is either y- or l-), and mix up -n and -ng endings. And of course they have no erhua.

In addition, some areas mix up l- and n-; and Hunan changes h- into f-, I think.

Please, do not pick up this accent. It's not considered standard Mandarin, not even by the southerners themselves. If you want to speak less Beijingnese, throw out the erhua, but do keep the distinction between s and sh and the others, and between -n and -ng. You'll be understood just fine all over China.

[Ari 桑]

I have many friends from different parts of china, and many use relatively non-standard pronounciation. Like anyone else, I learn the language by emulating those around me. Because some of my closest friends come from the far south, I have gotten used to their accent, and accusomed myself to saying things the same way. Because I have been using more and more of the southern pronouciation of things, it is becoming more natural to me than standard mandarin. Most of my prounouciation is an emulation of my friend from zhejiang.

However, I am making an effort to not go outside the bounds of what would be understood by all, and so far I've never had a problem. For example, when saying 上, I say it more like shang, if that makes sense. The "sh" sound is faint and not stressed, but still there, rather than "sang." Same goes for "zhe" sounds.

Another distinct part of my friends accent is the "r" sound at the beginning of words. 然后 is pronounced "lanhou" or "yanhou" (something between those two） and 人 is "l/yen" Would you consider this deviation from the norm more extreme that the "sh" and "zhe" mutation?

This accent comes to me more naturally than standard madarin, and I can say things without much of an accent easily, but saying 一点儿 etc sounds forced and american.

[Jive Turkey]

Ari, it's completely up to you to sound however you want to sound, and IMO, many people who preach that one should learn as standard a Mandarin as possible are often chasing a standard that they aren't really immersed in or even exposed to. That is the nature of Putonghua. I personally chose to learn what's considered standard for tones and the consonants and vowels, but gave less attention to -erhua since that is something peculiar to northern speech. I learned in Taiwan, so I quickly learned the correspondence between how locals pronounced certain things and what the "standard" pronunciation was. I think that if you want to learn a Putonghua dialect, then you should at least know what the "standard" form of whatever it is you hear in that variety of speech is. In fact, if you ever want to use reference materials, you will have to know what the standard pronuncation is.

IMO, learning what's considered "standard" is fine, but most of the people I've known who focused on that had piss poor listening comprehension once they left the northeast. If a learner expects to be able to use Putonghua to communicate with people from different areas, he needs to have at least some exposure to dialect accents. Unfortunately, most mainland teachers and publishers think that is heresy. I know of one series of books designed with the intent of helping CSL learners understand "non-standard" Putonghua:

Varieties of spoken Standard Chinese. Dordrecht: Foris Publications, 1984.

I've seen two volumes in this series. I think the books have a full transcript of a long conversation between a really standard speaker and a not so standard speaker, and a tape recording. I think there are also exercises for matching up the pronunciation of certain dialect influenced phonemes with their standard equivalents. One volume is on a speaker from Tianjin, the other volume is on a speaker from Taipei. I think there are other volumes, but I've never seen them.

[Luobot]

I'm also interested in this subject, so I followed-up on Jive's post and found the following from Amazon:

Vol 1 -- $102.28

Product Details

* Paperback

* Publisher: Foris Pubns USA (January 1983)

* Language: English

* ISBN-10: 907017667X

* ISBN-13: 978-9070176679

* Amazon.com Sales Rank: #4,603,959

Vol 2 -- $68.38

Product Details

* Paperback: 171 pages

* Publisher: Foris Publications USA (November 1984)

* Language: English, Cantonese

* ISBN-10: 9067650404

* ISBN-13: 978-9067650403

* Amazon.com Sales Rank: #5,573,486

The first one is presumably Mandarin. The second indicates it's Cantonese.

These seem to be a little expensive for just some paperbacks. It doesn't mention anything about including a CD or even tape (not that I could play tape). Also, there are no reviews, which is not a good sign.

[cdn_in_bj]

I have wanted to post about a related topic for a while. For now, let me just say that here in Beijing, one is exposed to a wide variety of mandarin pronounciations due to the large numbers that have moved here from 外地 for school and/or work (and I'm not just referring to the migrant workers). Ironically, I find the Beijing dialect and especially some of the 东北 pronounciations to be the most challenging to understand for a non-native learner of mandarin. I have little difficulty understanding most southern pronounciations.

[atitarev]

...IMO, learning what's considered "standard" is fine, but most of the people I've known who focused on that had piss poor listening comprehension once they left the northeast. If a learner expects to be able to use Putonghua to communicate with people from different areas, he needs to have at least some exposure to dialect accents. Unfortunately, most mainland teachers and publishers think that is heresy. ...

This is quite understandable, since teachers try to maintain the standard Mandarin. Non-standard is different everywhere, which can be picked up if you go and stay in that area for a longer time. It's probably more beneficial to learn that local dialect, not the local Mandarin accent.

Most local speakers understand the standard Mandarin very well, anyway.

Can anyone point me to a source that explains regional differences in mandarin pronounciation? I've been trying to find something along those lines, but so far I can only find comparisons on dialects.

My reason being, I originally studied chinese in beijing, but decided I would rather use a southern accent, from zhejiang, guangdong, or yunnan. When in those places, I can pick up on the regional differences, but its hard to compile them in a concrete way, so I can make sure I'm speaking rationally, and not just making things up.

Ari 桑, you are better of searching for specific dialects, there's plenty of info on Cantonese. The other dialects have much less resources, especially written. If you ask a speaker of those dialects, they (in many cases) will recommend you to learn Mandarin.

[DrZero]

Just my two cents, something I've mentioned here before: If you plan to spend an extended period of time in the south, it's advisable to drop the er-hua. The southerners find it annoying and kind of pretentious. It's probably better to maintain the s/sh and z/zh distinctions rather than speaking just like the southerners, but if you spend enough time with southerners you just may find some of that distinctions fading away in your own speech.

[Ari 桑]

I have wanted to post about a related topic for a while. For now, let me just say that here in Beijing, one is exposed to a wide variety of mandarin pronounciations due to the large numbers that have moved here from 外地 for school and/or work (and I'm not just referring to the migrant workers). Ironically, I find the Beijing dialect and especially some of the 东北 pronounciations to be the most challenging to understand for a non-native learner of mandarin. I have little difficulty understanding most southern pronounciations.

Totally the same for me. Although because I lived with a dongbei woman for a year, I totally understand dongbeihua, and find that more natural the beijinghua, but I still usually opt for the southern pronounciation.

I get the feeling that because most teachers of westerners are uppermiddle class northerners, that way of speaking has become what is expected of westerms. But, seriously, if someone wanted to really get into the beijing accent, and embraced it with open arms, lots of people wouldn't understand him.

Like what you said DrZero, when in the south, I've found that not only is it annoying to use erhua, but most southerners have a damn hard time understanding erhua when its being spoken by a non native (and maybe by natives too, depending on the individual)

[atitarev]

When I speak with erhua (by habbit) with Southerners, Taiwanese of HKers, I only get commended for my accent.

Perhaps, it's because I am not in China.

[Ari 桑]

I think it depends on the individual and what kind of social environment they live in. People who live in smaller places, outside of the big cities, have alot less exposure to erhua, and so often have a hard time understanding it. They probably understand 一点儿 and 玩儿 but probably don't understand 水儿 屯儿 and so forth.

Oh, I have a question. Are 干吗，干吗呢，干吗呀，干啥 etc all northern things? I find that people in the south are sometimes puzzled when I say these things, and I was never sure why.

[atitarev]

Sorry, not about 干吗.

Chinese people say that foreigners are usually expected to speak either English or standard Mandarin in China because many Chinese would, at least attempt to answer back in standard Mandarin when speaking to foreigners. I think, it's only worth familiarising with smaller dialects for comprehension only. Cantonese is perhaps an exception in Hong Kong/Macao, which is not only used by the majority but also by media and is considered standard there.

I am not insisting on my point of view, some people say it's better to use Shanghaihua when in Shanghai.

[cdn_in_bj]

Oh, I have a question. Are 干吗，干吗呢，干吗呀，干啥 etc all northern things?

干吗 is also used in Taiwan.

干啥 I recognize as being 东北话.

I am not insisting on my point of view, some people say it's better to use Shanghaihua when in Shanghai.

I also heard that this used to be the case but things have changed. I visited Shanghai a year ago and everyone I encountered spoke mandarin and not only that, was extremely courteous in doing so. Maybe things are different if one is living there vs. just visiting. In any case, I have yet to encounter such polite taxi drivers anywhere else in China (including HK).

[Ari 桑]

I think its also just fun to do something different. In terms of shanghaihua, for sure. I went there with my boyfriend once, and he's a beijingren, and he sometimes had a super hard time understanding people.

[atitarev]

Of course, it's fun to learn something new or different. I just think, Mandarin would be priority #1 anywhere in China, except HK and local dialects, if you can find time and resources. Not knowing Wu in Shanghai may be a hurdle in SOME jobs but I know there are Chinese people (I know some personally) who live and work in Shanghai without knowing the dialect. They pick up dialectal words and accent when they stay for some time, of course.

I heard and read a lot about Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong and have no idea about some other large cities in the South. Do you need to speak a dialect to get a job?

[Ari 桑]

I spose it depends on the job. I'd like to get a simple job in the nightlife, working at a club or bar. For that, I suppose localisms are great. If you want to be in big buisness, then I'm sure standard madarin is prefered.

[Lu]

I don't think foreigners are expected to speak the dialect, for any job that they would be considered for. I'd say a foreigner who does speak the dialect, even if it's only a few words, would be seen as a curiosity. (Even a simple phai-se (sorry) sometimes surprises people here. Wah, you speak Taiyu! No I don't...)

[anonymoose]

It is not at all necessary to speak shanghainese in Shanghai. Everyone apart from the elderly, mostly past retirement age anyway, speaks mandarin, and many people in Shanghai are from other areas and cannot speak shanghainese.

Having said that, IF you do speak shanghainese, particularly as a foreigner, you can have a great time seeing how people react when you start speaking it. I can't speak much shangainese yet, but enough to startle a few people. It is also funny sometimes when I speak shanghainese to a 外地人 by accident. They just stare at me thinking this 老外's mandarin is so crap I don't have a clue what he's saying.