Intermediate Learning through Reading

[Altair]

I have no teacher and so must use a variety of methods to progress in my Chinese. I finally feel that I am on my way to some useful proficiency and have found a new method that is paying real dividends: reading simple texts in Chinese that include dialog and then reading the translations. If find this is the only way to study certain aspects of grammar and usage that depend heavily on context.

I would like to propose that whoever is interested jointly study a text in Chinese and English. Having both languages might also attract greater interest from Chinese speakers interested in the intricacies of English. My idea is not to study the literature in itself, or to engage in a translation exercise, but to study the grammar and usage in context.

I have already read through The Diary of a Madman (狂人日记 Kuángrén Rìjì) by 鲁迅 Lǔ Xùn and so would like to propose this short story as our study text. This is apparently the first major short story written in Modern standard Chinese and so marks an important break from Classical Chinese. This story is also available on the web in English and Chinese. Lastly, for those of us who have Wenlin, we can also access the Chinese text directly.

Again the texts are available on the web here:

狂人日记

Diary of a Madman

There is also a bilingual edition available on Amazon.com.

If there is interest, perhaps I could begin with some commentary and questions on the introductory paragraph on the weblink, the first paragraph, which is in Classical Chinese, and the first "chapter" of the short story. I would propose skipping the preface.

How about it?

[Bryan]

Great idea! Count me in, Altair. My character knowledge and vocabulary is pretty weak and I have just recently decided that I wanted to force myself to dive in to parallel (or separate if necessary) bilingual texts as a fun, challenging way to intuitively (yet with plenty of hard work) learn to piece together lots of vocabulary, grammar and common usage in a natural manner in order to ultimately work my way up to an advanced level. I would consider myself low-intermediate at very best in terms of speaking and definitely below that in terms of reading/writing since until recently my focus has been on listening and speaking. I, like you, have only studied on my own. If you don't mind me "bringing up the rear" and asking lots of questions, I'd be happy to join in.

[DrZero]

I very, very highly doubt that this type of exercise is going to provide anything that will be of any use in communicating with real, live Chinese people face-to-face.

[Altair]

I very, very highly doubt that this type of exercise is going to provide anything that will be of any use in communicating with real, live Chinese people face-to-face.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at.

[roddy]

Start one that will then - some people just like reading

Good luck with this Altair.

[DrZero]

Just meant the vocabulary learned wouldn't apply to real-life situations, except in the case of discussing literature. Maybe better to expend the effort on contemporary materials such as books and magazines? It's like Chinese students of English working through the Canterbury Tales.

Just my thoughts, that's the way I'm geared. As Roddy said, some may be more into enjoying the literature prima facie.

[Altair]

DrZero, thanks for your reply. From your reference to the Canterbury Tales, I think you may not realize that Diary of a Madman, except for the first paragraph, is written in modern Mandarin, not in Classical Chinese. While some of the themes may not be modern, the language is more or less standard. One very important reason for my choosing Diary of a Madman is that it is real literature and that I could find both Chinese and English versions on the Internet without obvious copyright problems.

Let me go ahead and kick things off, though it seems we may be starting off with a community of only two study partners. If there is little interest in this exercise, I will just go on with my private study.

To try to keep things in manageable chunks, I'll address the Chinese in the above link up through section one. Normally, I would suggest that anyone using this as a study exercise first read the Chinese, then the translation, and then the discussion. This first bit is, however, anomalous, because the first paragraph is an introduction written by the website and because the first paragraph of the short story is written in Classical Chinese. If you are a low intermediate learner or an ambitious beginner, I would advise skipping the Classical Chinese and maybe even the introductory paragraph.

Since there is no corresponding English translation to the introductory paragraph on the link, I will give one below, trying for correct English that tries not to obscure the structure of the Chinese:

I. Introduction:

狂人日记

《狂人日记》是鲁迅的一篇短篇小说，也是第一篇白话小说。1918年5月发表于《新青年》杂志。收录在鲁迅的短篇小说集《呐喊》中。它由13则日记组成，记录了“狂人”的精神状态和心理活动，深刻揭露了封建主义的“吃人”本质，表现出彻底反封建的战斗精神。在艺术上运用了现实主义和象征主义相结合的手法。是中国现代文学史上第一篇白话小说。

Diary of a Madman

Diary of a Madman was a short story by Lu Xun and was the first vernacular (i.e., not written in Classical Chinese) work of fiction. It was published in May of 1918 in New Youth magazine. It was included in Lu Xun's short story collection Call to Arms. Composed of 13 sections, it records the mental outlook and psychological behavior of a madman, deeply revealing feudalism's man-eating essence and demonstrating a thorough antifeudal fighting spirit. With respect to art, it utilizes a technique of realism and symbolism combined. It was the first vernacular fiction in China's modern literature.

Points and structures to note:

1. Contrary to what you might expect, I have managed to translate every occurrence of 了le with an English present tense and all but one of the other verbs with an English past tense. If nothing else does, this should show that 了 does not simply mean "past tense." If you need further explanation for these particular usages, speak up.

2. 由13则: 由 yóu is often used to translate "by" in passive structures, and especially in 是......的 shì.......de constructions. It has a connotation of indicating source or authority.

3. 深刻: Many stative verbs can act as English adverbs without the need for 地de.

4. 在艺术上: 在......上 zài.....shàng often is the equivalent of "with respect to."

My question:

A. What is the difference between 则zé and 章zhāng? Could either be used to translate "13 chapters"?

II. Classical Chinese Paragraph:

Points to note:

1. Note how many four-character phrases are used.

2. Note the modern use of commas and semicolons that is still different from English usage.

3. Note that Lu Xun seems to have used a device that gives an excuse to write in 百花 báihuà (vernacular). The short story is structured as a piece of Classical Chinese (which would be the norm for serious literature of the period) which merely quotes the ravings of a madman in 百花. What an ingenious way to find an excuse to write in 白话!

My questions:

1. What does 君jūn mean in 某君昆仲? How would you say this in 普通话?

III. Paragraph beginning with 今天晚上:

Points to note:

1. Notice the usage and omission of Chinese pronouns. Compare it with the English.

2. Notice how words like 已yǐ,了le, and 以前yǐqián convey relative time and how other verbs convey the present tense without being explicitly marked for tense.

3. 有理yǒulǐ: Notice how this phrase functions as a unit in 我怕得有理 wǒ pà de yǒulǐ, "I am justifiably afraid."

My question:

A. Is the phrase 何以héyǐ used in spoken Chinese? If so, how does it differ from 为什么?

If there is another installment of this exercise, perhaps we could just deal with the four paragraphs of "chapter II." Any suggestions?

Any other suggestion?

I hope this helps.

[laosheep2007]

大家好，我是一个中国人,我的英语不是很好，我随便说几句。

hello everybody. I am a Chinese. My English is not very good, and you could compare my English with the Chinese words, and if there is any conflict, the Chinese version should be right.

坦白地说，如果要学中文用来交流的话，《狂人日记》不是很好的选择。 鲁迅所在的年代和现代人的表达习惯很不一样。

Honestly speaking, if you are studying Chinese for the use of communication, "Diary of a Madman" is not a good choice. People who were contemporaries with Luxun had very different expression type with us nowadays.

[Ofriendragon]

A middle school textbook in use now may be a choice for an intermediate level learner.

[laosheep2007]

And what's the most important, is the expressive habit. Such as the different word order of the language. A teacher told me that when an American student sees such a long sentence as "深夜12点仍旧不能入睡，略带醉意，脸色发黄，头发散乱，嘴里叼着一个闪着火星的香烟，在昏暗的灯光下正在发呆的他，突然若有所思的抬起头来去看墙角那一张蜘蛛网，心中思绪万千。", he is much more headachy than when a Chinese student sees an long English sentence, for the Chinese word order is much more difficult than other languages. And it's better not to study with the text written 30 even 100 years ago, there are so many differences that even a lot of Chinese could not know the exact meaning of many words and paragraphs from articles more than 100 years ago.

[Altair]

A middle school textbook in use now may be a choice for an intermediate level learner.

At least for me, such books only go so far. Also, most of them assume the presence of a teacher that can clear up difficult points and so give only vocabulary lists and a few grammar points.

大家好，我是一个中国人,我的英语不是很好，我随便说几句。

hello everybody. I am a Chinese. My English is not very good, and you could compare my English with the Chinese words, and if there is any conflict, the Chinese version should be right.

你说英文说得比我说中文好得多, 也比我勇敢多了。

坦白地说，如果要学中文用来交流的话，《狂人日记》不是很好的选择。 鲁迅所在的年代和现代人的表达习惯很不一样。

Honestly speaking, if you are studying Chinese for the use of communication, "Diary of a Madman" is not a good choice. People who were contemporaries with Luxun had very different expression type with us nowadays.

A middle school textbook in use now may be a choice for an intermediate level learner.

I think you misunderstand my intention. I have many books that teach Chinese grammar and several intermediate books that teach contemporary expressions and socially useful dialog. My interest is in clearing up concepts that are not described in instructional books and in working out Chinese modes of written expression.

And what's the most important, is the expressive habit. Such as the different word order of the language. A teacher told me that when an American student sees such a long sentence as "深夜12点仍旧不能入睡，略带醉意，脸色发黄，头发散乱，嘴里叼着一个闪着火星的香烟，在昏暗的灯光下正在发呆的他，突然若有所思的抬起头来去看墙角那一张蜘蛛网，心中思绪万千。", he is much more headachy than when a Chinese student sees an long English sentence, for the Chinese word order is much more difficult than other languages. And it's better not to study with the text written 30 even 100 years ago, there are so many differences that even a lot of Chinese could not know the exact meaning of many words and paragraphs from articles more than 100 years ago.

I think I understand your point; but at worst, such language is no more outdated than Gulliver's Travels or the Lord of the Rings. Both of these books use antiquated English, but a Chinese speaker reading them could still learn a lot of English and a lot of things about basic English grammar. Lu Xun uses words like 伊 and the Lord of the Rings uses expressions words like "thou" and "thee" and strange word order, but if someone had a handy translation, I do not think reading such works would be that confusing.

Here is my somewhat literal translation of the Chinese quoted above:

"He, still unable to fall asleep at 12 midnight, with a little tipsy feeling, face yellowing, hair disheveled, a mouth holding a sparkling cigarette, just staring blankly under the dark light, raised his head suddenly, as if lost in thought, to look at the spiderweb in the corner, his mind in tumult."

This is just the sort of thing I am interested in. Courtesy of Wenlin's excellent software, I do not find it too difficult; but if I had an English translation handy, it would have been easy to confirm my understanding. The only thing I find suprising in that sentence is the use of 的他 . Without seeing such sentences, I would not have known pronouns could ever have been used that way in Chinese. By the way, is this an example of a construction that is no longer used? I have seen this sort of thing in Japanese and wonder if Lu Xun copied this style from Japanese. I, myself, have no intention of forming such sentences myself, orally or in writing; but they help me understand better how to approach Chinese reading as a Chinese person does. Even the use of the commas has been helpful to see. 我还学习写字打字呢。我还没想到当现代汉语作者。对我所需要学习来说什么书面白话表达都好。

Perhaps, I am overestimating my level, but how hard can what I propose be? After all, a translation is just a click away on the same computer screen?

I am working on book 4 of 呐喊 and have found the exercise very helpful and the reading much more interesting than the essays or simple dialog I have found in instructional books. I have also tried reading Chinese fiction without translation, but I always have questions that I cannot resolve on my own. People on this forum have sometimes been very helpful, but I cannot post questions about every paragraph without wearing out my poor fingers and everyone's patience.

My learning requirements at the moment are: authentic literature, available for free online in the original Chinese and in translation and enough dialog to include grammatical patterns that rarely occur elsewhere. The style of writing is not yet of much importance to me, since I am not trying to learn that. If anyone has any other suggestions that might my requirements, I would love to hear them. I will, of course, continue with other sources for other aspects of what I need to learn, but that is another matter.

[gato]

By the way, is this an example of a construction that is no longer used? I have seen this sort of thing in Japanese and wonder if Lu Xun copied this style from Japanese. I, myself, have no intention of forming such sentences myself, orally or in writing; but they help me understand better how to approach Chinese reading as a Chinese person does. Even the use of the commas has been helpful to see. 我还学习写字打字呢。我还没想到当现代汉语作者。对我所需要学习来说什么书面白话表达都好。

Probably. Lu Xun was a medical student in Japan and must have been very fluent in Japanese. Since he was a pioneer in creating a modern Chinese that's closer to the spoken language, I'm sure he was influenced by the language reforms in Japan. Many new Chinese words created in the 1910s-1940s like 社会 and 科学 were in fact borrowed from Japanese.

I think your comparison of Lu Xun to Jonathan Swift is about right. Neither is as far removed from today's language as Chaucer would be. I think Lu Xun is difficult for the intermediate but is probably within grasp for someone very motivated. Lu Xun is also a very, very good writer. I think the time spent studying him would be well worth it. US colleges that offer Chinese often start teaching Lu Xun in 4th-year classes, I believe.

[laosheep2007]

"He, still unable to fall asleep at 12 midnight, with a little tipsy feeling, face yellowing, hair disheveled, a mouth holding a sparkling cigarette, just staring blankly under the dark light, raised his head suddenly, as if lost in thought, to look at the spiderweb in the corner, his mind in tumult."

This translation is very good, including all the information and has the exact meaning.

Well the use of 的他 in this sentence is very common in both oral and written Chinese. Pronouns could be used that way in Chinese, for it is the subject of the sentence, only to have a long modifier.

"Authentic literature, available for free online in the original Chinese and in translation and enough dialog to include grammatical patterns that rarely occur elsewhere."

It happens to be that I know one nice fiction with translation, and it is written by the most popular writer Jin Yong, Louis Cha is his English name, in China. A fascinating story written in beautiful language and complies with the most strict grammar. The most important thing is that it is written in modern Chinese and has the same expressive style that we, modern Chinese, have and uses the same words that we use today.

The Book and The Sword

Here is the English version.

http://uploadbook.dagamer.com/wxb/20051115wxb03.txt

Here is the Chines version

书剑恩仇录

the first chapter

http://bbc.sh/book/wuxia/sjncl/20061220000.htm

the other chapers

http://www.d9cn.com/d9cnfull/3/3604.html

But there is one big disadvantage that the English version is not perfect translated, it only contains the main scenario.