Disappointed with my Chinese HELP!

[griz326]

I was disappointed with my Chinese speech while I was in China. No one seemed to understand what I was saying. I guess they gave me credit for trying, but I was hoping I would have learned a bit more and would have spoken it properly. [NOTE: I am hard of hearing...so hearing to learn to say a word - as you do in Pimsleur - could be an issue.]

I theorize that if I could learn to read and pronounce pinyin I would be making better progress. Is that possible? If so, is there a course dedicated to teaching Chinese through pinyin?

What about Rosetta Stone with their microphone input comparison of words??? (I just hate the thought of being tied to the computer for another 2 hours a night.)

Unfortunately, there is only one college within 100 miles of here and they do not teach Chinese so that path is blocked.

Your suggestions are appreciated. At this time next year, I hope to be teaching English in China.

[JimmySeal]

In my opinion, pronouncing Chinese is pretty darn hard for pretty much any learner. When I went to Taiwan, trying to produce full sentences usually got me nothing more than confused looks from people so I wound up restricting myself to individual words and a lot of pointing. Other people I spoke to there, who had been there about a year, had had similar experiences and quickly given up. The distinctions between ch/q, sh/x, zh/j are pretty hazy for an English speaker, not to mention the tones.

But I'm not giving up, and I hope you don't either. If you're learning from what you're doing, keep at it. If you can read a bit, I'd suggest watching Chinese movies with the Chinese subtitles on and imitating the actors. That gives learning less of a textbook feel to it.

I don't have any experience with learning software or audio programs so maybe somebody else can say some more about that.

[simonlaing]

Dear Griz,

Welcome to the hardest language in the world. If it was easy everyone would be able to speak it and it would be like spanish. But after you learn it it will be valuable because it is hard to learn.

I have to say speaking is one of those things where you need a class or a tutor to learn it. Certain things about arrangement of teeth, tongue and lips in the zh, ch, sh, ji, and the zi, ci, si,. Also tones you have to have a native speaker or someone with a high level there to correct you. Because as much as some one says, oh the second tone is like a rising question sound, unless you have someone to train you in it you won't get it.

I've been living in CHina for awhile and can speak with anyone. (however last year I did a MA in England) and lost many of my tones. Now people understand me 90% of the time but there are sometimes issues where I am lazy on the tones and the word could have two meanings depending on the tones.

So get a class, tutor or language partner. As this is one part of the language that you have to be trained in. You can't simply learn it from a book or (in my experience ) a computer program.

Have fun,

Simon:)

[DrZero]

In response to your one question, I do think that learning pinyin is going to be essential. It isn't too hard, and it will be crucial for helping you learn the sounds properly.

[atitarev]

I noticed A LOT of students just don't take the pronunciation seriously when learning Chinese. The words seem very simple - ZAI, ZHAI, CAI, CHAI, etc.

It only takes a little time going through phonetic exercises before you get better. Well, initials/finals are easier to pronounce than tones.

You don't have to use computers, get textbooks with audio to listen on your favourite CD or MP3 player.

[madizi]

One of many ways to remember how to pronunce piyin is to find similarities with pronunciation in your own language or foreign language. For example, when in first grade of sinology, our teacher encouraged us to use this method. So, for remembering how to pronunce CHI, we used one letter from our (Slovenian) alphabet, "č". And we were all born in time when Yugoslavia still existed, so we were also able to speak Serbo-Croatian language, from where we took letter "ć" to remember how to pronunce Q in syllable QI. But of course, that's not enough and is just a tool for absolute beginner (and you should throw it away as soon as possible). You have to have native teacher to teach you. Beacuse, in spite of similarities in pronunciation, there are still slight differences. These differences you learn with teacher and practice (listening to tapes, watching movies, conversation with natives and all othere methods that other posters already mentioned).

But, as others said, beginning to speak Chinese pronunciation is hard. When I was in China for the first time, it occured very regular that I had to say something twice or more before people understood what I'm trying to say. Even the most simple sentences as "Duoshao qian?":oops:

I didn't understand quite clearly a thing about your hearing. Do you have hearing problems or you're just not able to hear other peoples pronunciation?

[leosmith]

I am hard of hearing...so hearing to learn to say a word - as you do in Pimsleur - could be an issue.

First of all, for being hard of hearing and having what it takes to learn a language, big congratulations.

Pimsleur is a great way to start a language, but with Mandarin pronunciation it's just not enough IMO. I think you got it right - you need to see the pinyin, especially if you're hard at hearing, in order to be certain what sound they're producing.

And even before that, I think it's wise to make sure you are capable of producing all the correct sounds in isolation. It only takes a few hours, spread out over a couple weeks, to get them down. Descriptions are available for free at sinosplice and FSI.

Here's an example of a description. How do you make the "xi" sound in xihuan (the word for "like")? Do you make it like "she" in English? This is wrong, and will probably confuse natives. Try this; first say "E" like in speed. Without moving your tongue, try to say xi.

After you understand the description, Mandarin Chinese Phonetics and Chinesepod both have syllable tables that you can practice with. I recommend repeating/chorusing all the syllables a few times.

Then you can get a Pimsleur transcript in pinyin, and check your pronunciation as you go along.

[atitarev]

One of many ways to remember how to pronunce piyin is to find similarities with pronunciation in your own language or foreign language...

I am afraid, you need more than that. Everyone approximates another language to his own without any instructions, the trick is to listen for the difference.

Chinese CHI might be similar to či (чи, etc.) but so is ZHI, maybe even closer...

[fredrik_w]

Hi,

I had the same experience when I visited China in April. I used Pimsleur for four months before arrival (almost finished part III). Sometimes the guy I was talking to understood what I was saying, sometimes not. My conclusion after my one-week visit was that Pimsleur works but its not enough, even for pronunciation which I believe is Pimsleurs greatest benefit.

The last months I have been practicing isolated words over and over again (just a little every day). I believe that its necessary and Foreign Service Institutes module Pronunciation & Romanization have helped a lot. I discovered errors I have been doing during the Pimsleur lessons. I use a talking dictionary called Wenlin (recommended!). This is much better than Chinese Homework Trainer which I use earlier that has a computer voice.

If anyone planning to start using Pimsleur, this is what I recommend:

- Start with FSIs P&R Module

- Download the transcripts (search the net)

- Buy a good dictionary (both a printed one and for the computer)

- learn pinyin (this will improve correct pronunciation and help remembering vocabulary, at least for me).

Now Im planning to travel to China in October. This will be a good opportunity to see if I have done any improvements. Right now Im using FSI (completed module 4) and Chinesepod (elementary).

// Fredrik

[woliveri]

Here's what you do....

Go to Chinesepod.com

Sign up for a free trial (just need email address and basic info).

Look for: " Brush up on grammar or pronunciation..." and click on the "pronunciation" link.

Scroll down to the bottowm and download the entire Pinyin Chart.

Practice, Practice, Practice.

If you like the service you can then sign up for ChinesePod.

Hope this helps.

[madizi]

"Kingsoft Powerword 2007" is also great tool for pronunciation. It is a dictionary for Windows and it also has voice recordings of words that you're looking for. The only disadvantage is that it reads word for word and not the whole word. For example, pronunciation of 音乐 is "yin yue", but Powerword reads it as "yin le". The character 乐 has two ways of reading: "le" and "yue". Powerword always uses the first one.

But I don't know if it is possible to get it in US......

[griz326]

It is comforting to know that I am not alone.

It is wonderful living in Montana, but there are few if any Chinese people within 250 miles so getting a tutor is not possible. I may try an online tutor, but my ability to hear well comes back into play.

Thank you for all of the suggestions...I'll give them a go.

[woliveri]

Griz,

You could try these folks.

http://www.echineselearning.com/

I did a trial with them when I was in the states and it was quite good. My friend is studying with them and his progress has grown much faster.

[thph2006]

The only thing I'd like to add is I found it's really important to practice pronunciation in a sentence context. Get a hold of a list of canned phrases and mimic the flow and cadence of the native speaker through the entire phrase rather than on a word by word basis. I found native speakers have an easier time understanding me that way as opposed to when I try to speak a string of individual syllables.

[zozzen]

If you 're in China, one of the convenient way is to bring a Chinese learning kit to a less busy cafes, let them know you're learning Chinese, and many people will instantly find it interesting enough to give you free practices.

It's quite difficult to learn tonal language because minor mistakes will make a big different meanings. Idiomatic changes in tones are particularly confusing. So, don't hesitate to speak your newly learnt vocab and sentences to your friends to see if they can understand what you said.

Don't be disappointed when people don't understand you. Speakers of any language have spent many years in their childhood to be fluent. I'd never expect I could skip this tendious and boring learning process.