F Visa - get paid and take wife?

[waldo000000]

Hi,

I've been offered a 9-month internship at a company in Beijing, but they are only offering me an F visa. I am planning on taking my wife with me. A couple of questions:

• I will get a small income from the internship - is this legal on an F visa, or do I need a Z visa? Should I be concerned?
  
• Can my wife be "included" under my F visa? (I know this can be done with a Z visa...)
  
• If not, I guess she will have to get a tourist visa (presuming, in the worst case, she can't get a job and her own F or Z visa). If so, what are her chances of being able to stay for 9 months as a tourist, and what's the best way to do it? Go to HK after 6 months to renew?
  
• Am I likely to be able to get an F visa to cover the 9 months, or will I have to go to HK to renew as well after 6 months?
  

I just want to make sure that this is going to be doable, and that we won't have to leave China early because a visa can't be renewed. Thanks for your help :-)

[Senzhi]

For anything longer than 6 six months, you should have a Z-visa, which will then be exchanged into a residence permit.

Most likely your F-visa will only be valid for 6 months and you'll have to renew it in HK.

[bianfuxia]

I have a related question.

My spouse will be on a Z visa sorted out by the company. Do I get one too? Will I be able to work? Or do I get some other kind of visa?

I'd be grateful if anyone knows the answer. I haven't found one so far.

thanks

[Long Pan]

For your wife, normally no problem to extend up to one year from a L to a F visa - I did it here in Beijing; see this thread for more details.

[waldo000000]

Thanks for your responses. Unfortunately, my company has said it is too hard for them to get a Z visa. So the purpose of these posts is to see if we will be alright without one.

Some more specific questions:

1. Is it legal to get paid on an F visa?

2. Long Pan, to extend/convert an L visa to an F visa, do you need a letter of invitation from a company in China? Is it legal/ok otherwise?

Thanks again

[BrandeX]

Unfortunately, my company has said it is too hard for them to get a Z visa.

Sometimes an indicator of a company which hires foreigners illegally without having government permission to do so.

[trevelyan]

Don't worry about it. No-one cares about your working as an intern on an F-visa. And while it may not be legal (internships might though), it happens at an overwhelming number of state-owned and state-invested companies.

Just get whoever gets you your invitation letter to get one for your wife. If you end up working for this company long-term (more than a year) they should switch you onto a Z-visa. But it is easiest to do that sort of thing in-country anyway, even if you have to leave for Hong Kong to turnover the actual documents.

[Long Pan]

2. Long Pan, to extend/convert an L visa to an F visa, do you need a letter of invitation from a company in China? Is it legal/ok otherwise?

In the address given in my previous post, they do not ask you anything. You can call them, the guy speaks quite good English. It is legal as long as you do not work (I do not work, I study here); so it should be OK for your wife

[shanghaikai]

Getting a Z visa is a more involved and potentially more costly process than an F visa. Therefore, if your hiring company is simply lazy or cheap, they'll probably ask that you accept the F visa even if it is technically illegal. A Z visa involves the company securing an employment license to retain you as well as you getting a work permit. A lot of red tape is involved but in the end, you have the comfort of knowing that the rules somewhere say you're entitled to certain official protections and recourses as an employee, provided you ever bother to wade through the red tape to exercise such rights/priviledges as a foreigner. Forcing you to work illegally on an F visa also ensures that you have no way of legally enforcing them to pay you whatever was agreed upon, and for all intents and purposes, your patience and determination will run out long before their home-field advantage is jeopardized.

[waldo000000]

Hi all,

I've got some new information.

This is a VERY, VERY large, multinational corporation - no doubt scrutinised reasonably closely by the government. Apparently I am only being offered an F visa because I am an intern, as opposed to an employee. The company has many university students come as interns, and offering an F visa invitation is, apparently, the standard policy.

But they did say they can't help with my wife's visa, so I guess she will be looking for a job to get her own F or Z visa, or go on an L visa and hopefully extend it/convert it once we're over there to stay for the 9 months.

Do you think this sounds like a good plan? What are the chances she will not be able to stay for 9 months?

Thanks

[shanghaikai]

Go to your local consulate (if there's one nearby) or call them and ask about your wife's situation. If they're lazy, they won't know how to think outside the box to make this as easy and reasonable as possible for you and your wife...and give you the equivalent of a blank stare. If you're lucky, you'll get someone who understands your situation, accepts that a large multinational company somehow can't get you a Z visa, and give you a battle-plan on what you should do. (BTW, Is your internship paid? If not, that may explain the F visa.)

I suspect they'll tell you to get her a tourist visa (L), get to Shanghai, and then deal with the PSB here on how to extend it. That said, that's not entirely a bad idea as I almost think the PSB people here are quite competent. Last time I was there, they had a decent amount of literature for various visa classifications, often including provisions for spouses. It is still written in a lot of bureaucratic mumbo jumbo most of us can't make left or right of but just get a number, read what you can, and then politely beg the officer that helps you for guidance. Be a nice dumb foreigner and they'll usually feel sorry for you.

F visas are typically used for short-term business or study purposes. What will your wife be doing while she's here? If she enrolls in a university program, she can quite easily get an F visa and the PSBs that visit the schools to help the foreign students are usually quite good about getting you odd periods of validity for your visas.

Just be patient, do your best to clearly communicate your situation and what you need, and be willing to work with them on getting what you need. Good luck!

[waldo000000]

Hi shanghaikai,

Thanks for your response. It is paid, 4000RMB/month plus 2100RMB/month rent allowance. The last two times I went to the consulate I definitely got the "blank stare" response, plus a bit of "oh, well, I don't really know, it's not up to me, maybe 1 or 3 or 6 months? ...", etc. But I might try my luck again today.

By the way the internship is in Beijing, so I guess that is likely to be similar to your experiences in Shanghai?

My wife is looking at possibly teaching english, as we are hoping those kinds of jobs are the easiest way to get a Z visa. But she is hoping to go to Beijing on a tourist visa first, then possibly go to HK once she's lined up a job and the paperwork. We are just counting on there being enough time for her to line up a job and the paperwork before her initial tourist visa runs out.

Thanks!

Roy

[waldo000000]

Update: I visited the consulate in Brisbane, Australia again today, and was told that I should apply for a 6 month F visa, i.e. tick the "Business" box on the form (she said she didn't think it mattered that I would be paid) and a 6 month L visa for my wife. She seemed a bit dismissive and I'm not sure how much thought she put into her answer, but that was all I could get out of her. I have a bad feeling the people at the desk who you can talk to are separate from the people in the back room who actually grant or reject the applications :-(

But, seeing as that was my third visit, I think I will have to now bite the bullet and go ahead and book plane tickets with a return 6 months ahead. If I'm lucky enough to find a way to extend for another 3 months I guess I'll have the return dates changed.

Wish me luck! Any other thoughts or concerns about how I'm going about this, please share them

Thanks,

Roy

[cdn_in_bj]

I may be missing something, but isn't it fairly straightforward to extend an F or L visa past the initial 6 months here?

[Senzhi]

Not extend, but renew .... and it has to be done outside the country or, obviously, HK.

[shanghaikai]

F visa's for "business" are usually for people coming here for business related matters not including employment. However, you may be able to get away with that since you're not doing anything terribly wrong. Your wife will probably have to get the L visa, I just wasn't sure how it could be granted for.

I was not required to leave China when I renewed my F visa but any foreigner staying longer than six months in China is subject to a medical examination in order to get a renewal. Keep that in mind. I was able to renew my F visa and get my Z visa all without leaving the country. As I've said before, I'm not entirely clear with why some people have more hoops to jump through than others.

Either way, best of luck and welcome to China!

[Senzhi]

... and the 'local hoops' all depend on the 'guanxi' of your employer. Regardless of laws and regardless of us all posting here: anything and nothing is possible, depending all on the local networking of your employer.

But as I understood they can't help you, standard procedures apply. Take nothing for granted, unless you have it firmly in your pocket.

[cdn_in_bj]

I was not required to leave China when I renewed my F visa but any foreigner staying longer than six months in China is subject to a medical examination in order to get a renewal.

I had already been in China for close to 2 months when I went to apply for a new F-visa last year. I had the choice of applying for a 6-month or 12-month multiple-entry visa. In neither case was a medical exam required. However, when I applied for my Z-visa/employment residence permit I did have to take a medical exam.

... and the 'local hoops' all depend on the 'guanxi' of your employer. Regardless of laws and regardless of us all posting here: anything and nothing is possible, depending all on the local networking of your employer.

As far as I can tell, 'guanxi' had nothing to do with it in my case. I went to renew my F-visa myself in person. I stood in line for half an hour like everyone else, and had with me the required documentation (visa application form, letter from my employer, and my employer's business license).

I think that 'guanxi' would come into play if you don't meet the official requirements for an F-visa. In my case, I did and it was a very painless process. But that was over a year ago, so things may have changed since then.

See also:

http://www.ebeijing.gov.cn/Tour/Tips/t200980.htm

Especially the last section about visa extension:

You can also find a local travel agency to help you with your visa extension especially if the PSB is giving you problems.

That just cracks me up - didn't expect to see that kind of 'advice' on a government website.

[waldo000000]

Hi all,

Thanks again for your help. A final question: When should we apply to

the consulate for the visas? I have heard that the duration of tourist

visas (especially the 3 month or 6 month ones) are activated from the

ISSUE date, i.e. pretty much the APPLICATION date, not the date of

entry to China. Is this true? And is this the same for F visas?

If so, and if we apply in December (1 month before arriving), that

would potentially mean we'll really only be able to stay in China for

5 months, and would therefore need to book return flights accordingly.

Anyone had personal experience in this? Especially with the Australian

Consulates? Tried many times asking the Brisbane consulate myself, and

they are hopeless - they just keep saying to fill out the form, bring

my passport etc. and apply 1 to 2 months before arriving, and won't

give further information

Cheers again,

Roy

[shanghaikai]

cdn: That's odd, because IIRC most of the literature and information I've received from PSB officials have been very clear on a medical examination being required for stays projected to exceed 6 months. In fact, much of the information (especially online and from university application instructions) also seems to indicate that a medical examination is necessary for any entry into China!

That said, I was required to get a medical examination when I renewed my F visa but was not required to get another medical examination when I got my Z visa because my the examination from my F visa was still valid as long as it wasn't over 6 months old.

waldo: Your visa has two time limitations. One determines how much time you have to use the visa to enter China. The other determines how long you can stay in China after you've entered. The latter is not activated by the issue date, but by the entry date. If you have a six month visa, you'll be able to stay six months after arriving, as long as you arrive before the visa validity expires.