china videos

[gato]

.As a general rule in the music world a good majority of our music is created in England. It is a generally accepted rule that England is the proving ground (about 5 years ahead of the US in terms of music) and the US is the "money maker". If you make it in England you then come to the US and get rich is the general idea.

More true for rock than pop in the fashion of Mariah Carey and Britney Spears.

[shanghaikai]

No doubt a lot of music comes from England but I'm not sure if I would say "a good majority of our music." The sheer size of population and market tends to correlate in matters like these, and as gato said, I reckon there are quite a few popular genres of music where England is not exactly the poster child. However, let's avoid any national pissing contests here. One thing that is safe to say is that Asian people know more popular Western music than vice versa.

[prince]

well.. if more main stream media owners were asian or producers were asian...

jin would be way more blown up by now.

so.. .simply it's racism.

[shanghaikai]

LoL, I think that's simplifying things too much. Besides, don't Asians have better careers to pursue like becoming doctors, engineers, and lawyers? Pshaw! Who wants to be a music producer?!?

[taryn]

Actually, to back prince up, Jin is a first-class freestyle rapper. I think most of the hip-hop world knows that BUT there's no (American/Western) market for him as an artist.

This kid went to the hall of fame on BET's 106 & Park 'Freestyle Friday'. You can watch all seven of his battles on YouTube and see how he KILLED the competition. Back in '02, everybody was talking about the "Chinese kid that freestyles".

After that, he got signed to the hip hop label Ruff Ryders (DMX, Eve). Unfortunately, they mismanaged his career to death by delaying his album, giving him weak songs, not placing him in collaborations with other artists, etc.

[prince]

simplifying: well... if you blah more, dosen't mean you are smarter know more or right.

western/american market: I do believe western or americans know what good music or good talent is, no matter black, chinese or red. i do believe they or who-ever else appreciate good talented music, so there will always be a market for good music.

it's the racist problem thats in between the artist and the audience.

like i said; if the media outlet owner or producer were asian jin would get 100% effort help to get his creative works out to the world.... like happened to m&m where owners white.

[shanghaikai]

taryn: Yes, I remember Jin when he first hit the scene. While I admit I'm not up to date with hip hop these days, let's just say I wasn't so out of touch back in those days, such as 2002. Moreover, when I saw his performances, it sure wasn't on YouTube. Regardless, I think you guys are missing the point that's being made here. No one is doubting Jin's talent or skills as a rapper. The question is: how much does his raw talent matter in the music business? As your last comment validates, his career was and can be influenced by factors outside of his control. In your example, it was his managers/handlers. Do you think it was 100% their fault? I'd argue that it's not. That doesn't mean I think its Jin's fault either. I simply think there's a variety of factors that influence the decisions made by every player in this story, not least of which includes the audience. Those factors include the social expectations I mentioned previously.

prince: To be fair, categorically blaming "racism" for Jin not being as successful as you want him to be doesn't mean you're smarter, know more, or are right either. In this instance, I feel you're using "racism" as a superficial scapegoat instead of asking the really difficult questions. You want to BELIEVE that media owned by Asians or Asian music producers will automatically result in Jin being successful. That's simply not true. Why? Because you're largely ignoring reality.

There's a reason why the media is not owned by Asians. There's a reason why there are no powerful Asian-American music producers, especially in that genre. There's a reason why the audience is not as receptive to a kid like Jin who certainly has talent but happens to be of the wrong color. There are reasons born out of history and circumstance that no magical wishing of "Asian" management or whatever is going to solve. The reasons for Jin's difficulties are legion, and there is no simple, single solution.

In a way, coming around and calling everyone (the industry, the producers, the audience) "racist" is incredibly shallow. Do you think the industry influences what the audiences want or do you think the audiences influence what the industry produces? Do you think the producers make an artist successful or the fans? Until you figure that out, randomly throwing out the "race card" only serves to inflame people without actually contributing positively to the situation. Hip hop has a reputation for being largely dominated by black culture. White people had and still have a tough time getting into it, despite a handful of notable exceptions. But thin how long it took and think how different the barriers to entry still are. Social norms take time to change...and implying that if people don't like Jin or support Jin because they're racist probably isn't going to help you convince the broader audience to give a guy like Jin a try. How do you think the black community is going to feel if you called them a bunch of racists for not supporting Jin? You think that's going to get Jin more friends or encourage people to help him out?

I don't really think so.

By the way, Eminem's success is a blend of different factors too. I'd encourage you to do some research on how his career developed before simply assuming that his handlers were white and somehow their race magically guaranteed his success.

[prince]

simply put, a lot of non-asian artists are popular in asia, if you figure out why this is, then u'll understand what you said is not so valid.

if 2 persons had the same nice music, but one is not given promotion/distribution etc...while the other one gets full support, which one u think will succeed?

so simple....

yeah, there are a lot of factors... yet non-asian artists are still very popular in asia.

i m not here to get more fans for jin, i m saying he's got lots obstacles in his way like said in my 1st post.

the only reason he's still in the game is cause his true talent love for it.

[gato]

simply put, a lot of non-asian artists are popular in asia, if you figure out why this is, then u'll understand what you said is not so valid.

Not really true. I doubt you can name any that have a mass fan base in Asia. Few American or European stars are big here among the local population at least in China. Most people here don't know anything about Western pop music. I'd bet that's even true in wealthier places like HK, Korean, or Japan. The biggest stars are all local, or almost local in the cases of people like Wang Lee Hom.

[prince]

marriah carrey, seline dion, MJ, m&m, whitney houston, 50cent.. so on...

[gato]

marriah carrey, seline dion, MJ, m&m, whitney houston, 50cent.. so on...

Non-factors in mainland China, at least. Maybe others can tell us how big they are in Korea, Japan, or Hong Kong.

[shanghaikai]

simply put, a lot of non-asian artists are popular in asia, if you figure out why this is, then u'll understand what you said is not so valid.

if 2 persons had the same nice music, but one is not given promotion/distribution etc...while the other one gets full support, which one u think will succeed?

so simple....

yeah, there are a lot of factors... yet non-asian artists are still very popular in asia.

i m not here to get more fans for jin, i m saying he's got lots obstacles in his way like said in my 1st post.

the only reason he's still in the game is cause his true talent love for it.

With all due respect, what you say here really proves my point that you're missing the point and/or that you're unable to see past the superficial reasons. America and the West have long enjoyed a sort of cultural dominance ever since colonialism, the industrial revolution, and imperialism put them out ahead of "Eastern" culture.

Powerful nations their respective cultures tend to dominate what is "cool" or "popular." Those "below" tend to admire and emulate those "above." This is simple sociological theory, even if it is not a simple sociological phenomenon. Obviously, home-market artists will still get attention in their home-market, but what we're talking about here is whether or not a home-market star can penetrate a foreign market. Like it or not, Western stars are known much more by the Chinese than Westerners know Chinese stars. Why is it? Racism? No, its cultural dominance, even hegemony. This dominance, this hegemony is what subtly underlies all your shallow complaints about why Jin isn't as successful (ie. lack of distribution, promotion, management, etc.).

Again, I'm not saying additional distribution and promotion wouldn't have helped Jin. I'm saying you have to wonder why people saw fit not to give additional distribution and promotion to Jin...and the answer is not as simple as: "they must be racist."

Then, I'm saying that even if he had an Asian handler who gave 100% effort (which you seem to insist on being the solution), it would not magically make him successful. It would not necessarily make him the next Dre or Emeniem or West or whatever.

This is not a question of talent, this is a question of circumstance, and a broader understand of that circumstance than what you're offering.

Again, no offense, but I don't think you're identifying the real reasons and blaming "racism" isn't too classy when its easy to see that there's a lot more meaningful things to consider.

[shanghaikai]

Not really true. I doubt you can name any that have a mass fan base in Asia. Few American or European stars are big here among the local population at least in China. Most people here don't know anything about Western pop music. I'd bet that's even true in wealthier places like HK, Korean, or Japan. The biggest stars are all local, or almost local in the cases of people like Wang Lee Hom.

I don't think they have a "massive fan base" (though Michael Jackson was and is still pretty big outside of the States) but the point is that more Chinese people know the bigger/biggest stars of the West than the West knows of the bigger/biggest Chinese stars. Go to a major metropolitan city on either side. The odds of a (in this case, young) Chinese person knowing who Jay-Z or Linkin Park is significantly higher than a Western person knowing who (your example) Wong Lee Hom or even Jay Chou is.

Stars are brands. You can throw in Haier and McDonalds into this equation and the result would be the same. With regards to my contention with prince, Haier is owned by Asians and they're working their ass off to make it an internation brand, yet they have a huge hill to climb because of history, reputation, country-of-origin, etc. etc. factors. none of which is so simply and easily passed off as "racism."

Think of how long it took the Japanese to become known as reliable automakers. When they entered the market, they were widely derided as cheap, unsafe, unreliable, copy-cat junk. But they perservered and over time (a long time), they made it. Jin may be facing the same thing, just in a different industry. He's a trailblazer. He's doing something that few of his "kind" have done so well before. But he's still, for now, playing in someone else's sandbox. He'll have to earn his place there (and bring others too), but we need to remember that people's perceptions are slow to change.

[prince]

learn chinese

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yHqC_Uc2vU

[prince]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WSIV8ObNmM

[shanghaikai]

LoL, "the biggest thing ever," eh?

Oh well, I've said what needed to be said and asked the questions that should've been asked. I doubt I'll get much further by repeating myself again so cheers, mates.

[prince]

here kinda summerizes what Jin went through in the industry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1KXaAwczlw

[prince]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrRuEuICIBM&mode=related&search=

[prince]

[prince]

Non-factors in mainland China, at least. Maybe others can tell us how big they are in Korea, Japan, or Hong Kong.

further proves that what i said about who owns/controls media can make you popular or an unknown.