Living long term in China, without learning Mandarin

[simonlaing]

Recently I went to a Chamber of Commerce dinner. There I meet lots of other westerners who have been in China for several years like me. However I found very few of them had studied Chinese, and many of those who had studied did not keep reading or studying to keep their Chinese level up.

A couple of these people are Engineer Expats with secure job from the start. But most are English teachers or English teacher type good pay but bad promotion jobs of some sort. They have decided that knowing just enough Chinese to get by, is adequate.

My question then to those long timers out there. Do find like me the conversation topics that we can have with non-language skilled westerners is much more limited than with those with language skills?

Or do you think it is the other way around. The people with language skills are new students who haven't had much experience in China yet, and those that can't make up for it with having high positions or experiences that allow them to cope in China?

Anyway, I just wondered if there were others who had though about this distinction in Westerners who live in China long term. Comments are welcome.

[wushijiao]

My question then to those long timers out there. Is do find like me the conversation topics that we can have with non-language skilled westerners is much more limited than with those with language Skills

A lot of my acquaintances were in this boat: long-term expats with limited/no language skills. I'd say, for most conversation topics that aren't about China, there is no difference whatsoever.

However, in any dinner party-type situation, topics about China will come up, and this is where their opinions tend to be simplistic and stereotypical, to put it bluntly. When these people deal with or communicate with "the Chinese", they are usually talking about things the read in the China Daily, CCTV-9, or dealing with English-speaking Chinese people. Clearly, this would be a frustrating state of affairs. This is problematic because the China Daily and CCTV-9 are annoying propaganda organs of the State. Talking to people in English sometimes is fine, but it does raise a few questions. 1) Can the person really express himself/herself well in English? Not always. Even if the native speaker of English is sensitive to this, he or she still might subconsciously discriminate against the person for the rather simplistic way he or she expresses himself. 2) Does the native speaker of English have a cultural advantage in the sense that he or she is communicating in the language that is perceived to have more global prestige? In other words, are the two people communicating on an equal basis devoid of prejudice? I don't know. After all, the two people aren’t speaking a mutually neutral language, like Esperanto or something. 3) Are the people who can communicate in English representative (socio-economically) of China as a whole? Clearly not. This reminds me of lazy Western TV journalists who go to a country like Iraq to find out the views of “the man on the street” who, conveniently, speaks English. This person may have views or opinions that are representative of the community, but the fact that the person has had the educational opportunities and probably more direct exposure to Western ideas might influence his views in a way that would make him atypical of a common Iraqi. So, in my experience, I’ve noticed that many (not all) long-term expats in China tend to have somewhat stereotypical and slightly condescending views towards things Chinese. To some degree, it is not always their fault, and just the result of the communication structure and their economic position.

On the other hand, when you speak Chinese, the onus is on you to express yourself well, and to understand when you have said something inappropriate or over the line. Thus, you are dealing within the Chinese cultural norms and parameters, which can sometimes produce a different power dynamic.

On the other hand, most working adults are busy, and learning a foreign language is a very difficult task. As far as people learning languages, I strongly believe that people, regardless of nationality, only learn what is absolutely necessary for them to learn. In most expat working environments, learning Chinese is not really necessary. Also, some people simply have no talent for languages, in the same sense that some people are just awful at sports. I’m horrible at singing, and I doubt that that could ever change in my lifetime. So, I try to not be judgmental (even if I am).

[Chinese Learner]

When I used to live in Hong Kong over 17 years ago, the former colony was full of English expats who had lived there for years and years but never even bothered to learn Cantonese or even what the culture was properly about.

I could have sworn that some loved the fact they were living in an English colony. I'm sure they believed they were still living in the days of Queen Victoria's empire. I'm so glad there was no such thing as Tiger hunting on Elephant back because these were the kinds of people who would have taken to it in a big way. And then later drinking their Earl Grey tea with their cucumber sandwiches.

They didn't need to mix with the Chinese because as they had created their own little expat world without ever having to deal with 'real day-to-day' Chinese life. They had Chinese or Philipino amahs to do the shopping. Some had chauffeurs. And when they weren't working during the week, they had exclusive cricket clubs, country clubs and yaughting clubs where they could just mix with other westerners.

Obviously not everyone was like that but some you really felt reveled in feeling superior to the 'locals'. I used to study at an English school (though my mother is Chinese so I can speak Cantonese) and I knew many classmates who never learnt a word of Chinese in the twenty years they lived there.

Obviously, this is a bit different to the original post as Hong Kong was a colony at the time and did use English extensively throughout the region.

[simonlaing]

I guess I haven't asked the question right?

Perhaps I should put it this way?

How necessary is learning Chinese, to living here long term and making China your home?

In Shanghai there are plenty of Chinese people with excellant English skills. (Probably BJ too but I know Shanghai better.) In this type of city, it should be possible to have many Chinese friends and do Chinese activities dragon-boat racing, badminton, with very basic, just enough Chinese?

If you can do all these things without learning Chinese, is it worth it to learn Chinese.

Or on the flip side as wushijiao put it.

“the man on the street” who, conveniently, speaks English. This person may have views or opinions that are representative of the community, but the fact that the person has had the educational opportunities and probably more direct exposure to Western ideas might influence his views in a way that would make him atypical of a common Iraqi

Does interacting with Chinese people with good English skills mean you are not interacting with "real" Chinese people on their terms.

Anyway, I think Hong Kong as some different dynamics than the Mainland, though I guess as there are more long term expats there it could be place for comparison.

What you regulars, Skylee, Roddy, Imron, You've been here atleast as long as me. What do you think about this issue, Or do you think perhaps there is some Educated snobbery on my part?

Have fun,

SimoN:)

[Chinese Learner]

Sorry I'm going to stick my oar in again, though I'm probably not qualified to answer, as I haven't moved to Beijing yet. And also it might not answer what you're asking.

I would assume it all depends on how 'deep' an experience of China you would want.

If you really want to learn about the Chinese people and Chinese culture intimately, then I would imagine you absolutely need to learn the language to a good degree.

If you just want to get by, but interact mainly with people who speak your own language, then only learning a few words is fine, though I don't believe you will ever fully appreciate 'Chinese culture'.

It's like my Chinese grandma who moved to Vancouver from Hong Kong many years many years ago. She only ever learnt a little English because it was easy just to interact with other Chinese people who lived in Canada. Somehow though, I think she has missed out on experiencing certain things that were on offer in Canada, simply because she didn't speak English very well.

Does that make sense?

[wushijiao]

If you can do all these things without learning Chinese, is it worth it to learn Chinese.

That's a great question. In Shanghai, I knew a lot of people who had intended to become fluent, but their studies lost steam after they realized they could get by with the a solid foundation.

I agree that the quality of many people's English in Shanghai is really pretty good! That's a double-edged sword for the CSL learner, of course.

I would assume it all depends on how 'deep' an experience of China you would want.

I agree with that.

[Senzhi]

I think it is possible, though not advisable.

I believe it all depends on personal interest in the local cutlure ... and the motives for living long term in China.

However, from the English teacher perspective, I'd like to point out that it's not always easy to learn Mandarin or a local Chinese dialect: obviously schools requires teachers to speak English with their students at all times ..... but there are schools out there that require teachers to live on campus and socialise with the students in their free time ... in English.

In addition many students like 'to make friends' with the foreign teacher, only to improve their English speaking abilities, particularly in areas where there are not many foreigners.

That makes it really difficult for one to get indulged in the local language.

[imron]

What you regulars, Skylee, Roddy, Imron, You've been here atleast as long as me. What do you think about this issue

Personally, I believe that you can't really begin to take part in society and have people treat you as just an ordinary person until you can converse with them in their own language. You might be taking part in activities and the like, but you'll still be seen as an outsider. When you can communicate well enough with people in their own language then even though you are obviously foreign, it is not really an issue and you are just treated normally. Obviously this doesn't happen with random strangers, but it is possible with people that you know well.

[Mr Changsha]

Hello everyone!

Elementary-pre int. level after four years.

I have found that those of us who hook up with Chinese girlfriends who speak English learn very little, those that meet a non-english speaker tend to develop wonderful Chinese...Chinese that can humiliate the rest of us in every social event.

Here in Changsha, the natives tend to speak the local 'hua' and rarely speak 'pu tong hua' unless they have to. Naturally, it is hard to develop your Chinese well in such an environment.

Teachers often have little need to speak excellent Chinese and I suspect that a lack motivation is probably the most important factor.

Finally, the tones do make it a hard language to speak out. Chinese people are rarely entirely sympathetic in these situations.

[carlo]

I've lived here for more than five years, most of my foreign business acquaintances speak only survival Chinese as you say, though things seem to be changing to some extent, more and more young people come here with a higher standard of what it means to be proficient in a foreign language.

This may partly be due to the fact that Chinese society is opening up to an extent that would have been unthinkable only recently. Fifteen years ago, a fluent foreign Chinese speaker could only perform crosstalk on Chinese New Year. Today, you can almost 'integrate', which is the main reason why anyone would learn a language beyond the basics, I think. Here "integrating" ranges from marrying and raising your children locally to getting a job where speaking the language is actually useful.

[shanghaikai]

How necessary is learning Chinese, to living here long term and making China your home?

You can make any place your home. You can live anywhere long term. This question is still hampered by the definition of "home." What is "home?" It could be different for everyone. For some, being able to interact with the locals is a big part of feeling "at home." For others, the degree to which you can interact with the locals defines whether a place can be called "home." For yet others, so long as you have enough people you can interact with, it is "home." For some people, "home" is not even defined by any stipulation for interaction.

I'm wondering if the question you're trying to ask has more to do with adaptation and assimilation than "how much Chinese is enough."

In response to Senzhi:

I'm not very sympathetic to English teachers in China who try to excuse their Chinese language abilities (or lack there of) by blaming it on limitations (environmental or occupational) on their opportunities for learning Chinese. I think they should just come out and say they have no motivation to do so. It is virtually impossible to not have any opportunities whatsoever for learning, practicing, or interacting with Chinese.

Besides, the Chinese are far too proud of their language and culture to insist that you NEVER make an effort to interact in their language.

[Senzhi]

Shanghaikai,

Absolutely true, but then you leave those English students behind ... but of course it remains a personal choice.

[zozzen]

in a kungfu class i met a french classmate who speak no putonghua and very limited english, but he has built fairly good relationship with his classmates and teachers. there is no chance for leveling up any verbal conflicts, not any chance to complain, not many people going to disturb him, though i think it is quiteb boring, everybody feels he is lovely and funny because he relies dramatic body language to express everything. interestingly, all teachers assumed that he spoke english until i found that he actually speaks french. he is still alive after a few months in the school so i guess it is okay to live here without putonghua. he just ate more chilli than he wanted, more oil than he needed, and sometimes confused a glue and toothpaste. then everything is just fine.

[Niennah]

If you are going to live long term in another country you better learn the lingua. It shouldn't be a question of whether or not you can get along without it, it should be a duty to learn to communicate on the premises of the host country. I might sound a bit silly but.. for example, I'm from Norway, nearly everybody in Norway speak English, good English even, but it wouldn't be acceptable if you as a foreigner lived there for many years and only used English in your daily life, not even trying to learn Norwegian. It's rude. It's arrogant. Of course seeing as my Chinese is not that great yet I wish that more people around this area could speak English so that I could communcate better, but then again it's better for my CHinese that they don't