Any chance for serious relationship with Chinese girls?

[maybe_expat]

Hello,

As my nick may suggest I have been offered an expat deal in Beijing. Whilst this is not the deciding factor concerning my move to BJ, I'm interested to know is it possible to find a serious relationship with a Chinese girl?

My first touch to the Beijing nightlife is that Chinese girls are way more active in making contact with opposite sex (or at least with good-looking young Western men) than their Western counterparts. I visited a bit upscale nightclub. There were virtually zero non-Chinese people there and well ... they were making contact with me all the time. They were not hookers or anything like that. But one tlod my friend after 10 min chat that she looks after a Western boyfriend...

I understand that "financial stability" is what many are after, but I come from country with rather mild income differences and personal wealth is not the first thing to consider when people look for a relationship. We want to find "the match between souls".

So I do not like the idea of dating with a Chinese girl that is basically more interested in my wallet rather than in me. How to find out that a Chinese girl is a proper one, not a "working girl"? How Western men are considered among the well-educated and financially independent Chinese girls? And where to find those?

And finally I must say that the Chinese are relly kind and polite people. I have enjoyed my visits here a lot. I want to show my respect to them and learn more about your culture.

[Quest]

We want to find "the match between souls". And where to find those?

Not at a nightclub.

[onebir]

Quote:

We want to find "the match between souls". And where to find those?

Not at a nightclub.

Even with non-nightclub acquaintances there can be "more interested in my wallet than me" type problems. One not-met-in-a-nightclub female friend who'd been coming on to me quite obviously (much to the embarrassment of her friends) called me a "饭票". Instantly reducing her chances to zero

[Lu]

is it possible to find a serious relationship with a Chinese girl?

Considering the many, many Chinese-western relationships and marriages, I'd say yes, it is absolutely possible. In fact it seems to be hard to avoid for young white male expats to end up marrying a Chinese woman. But as Quest said, soulmates are not found in nightclubs.

In addition to the Chinese women, there are also a lot of foreign women in China, expats, students and otherwise, whom you might consider dating. I don't think you need to worry about your love life. (not meant sarcastically, I read your post as that you're worried you might end up being lonely in that respect)

[gougou]

soulmates are not found in nightclubs.

Why not? A friend of mine has been with a girl he met in a nightclub for around three years now... They're one of the most perfect couples I know.

[Lu]

Gougou: there are always exceptions. I was of course generalizing, and generally nightclubs are not the place to find a soulmate. It is of course possible to meet one there, but it is not the first place to look.

[shanghaikai]

1. It is definitely possible to find a serious relationship with a Chinese girl. In fact, it is probable...and by serious, I mean marriage. Many will have that in mind as the goal. Very few Chinese girls will date you and sleep with you just "for the thrill of it" (though as in all places, some will, of course).

2. Chinese girls are generally not active in making contact with the opposite sex. You were exposed to the exception, not the rule. The girls you met are there because being with "foreigners" or "white people" gives them some sort of satisfaction. Whether it is as innocent as just wanting to practice their English and get to know foreigners or as innocuous as making themselves feel "international" or as exploitive as "a foreign boyfriend makes me cooler than others" or as practical as "a foreign boyfriend will likely give me a standard of living few locals can possibly give me," they are there and approaching you for something. I hate to burst your bubble, but that's just the way it is. It doesn't mean you won't meet a nice girl, it just means your odds are that much lower.

3. No one in China gives a $#!t what people in your country look for in a relationship, "match between souls" or not. Okay, not no one, but very few people. You have to understand that you likely come from a country where your income or personal wealth is vastly different from those here in China. It doesn't matter if there's "mild" disparity in your country, there is large disparity between you and them HERE. You can operate by whatever principles of love you wish, it is your life, but do not fool yourself into thinking that they'll eschew their own priorities and mindsets to adopt your's. You may find yourself horribly disappointed when she responds to all your "soulmate" talk by asking when you're going to buy a house for her, whether or not you'll let her handle all the finances, and how much allowance she should give you per mounth.

4. Most Chinese girls will be more interested in your wallet than you. If you can't accept that, then you're haven't understood the socio-economic and cultural background that results in this phenomenon (not just in China but in many "poorer" countries). One could even argue that you're disrespecting their circumstances and mindset by wanting to impose cultural values you've gained from your own situation that is different from their's...upon them. They do not think it is wrong to judge you in financial terms or your ability to provide. That's just life. Hell, it's Maslow's hierarchy. The best way to avoid a girl who will be calculating your ability to provide is to find a girl that has more money than you. They are few but they're out there.

5. A proper Chinese girl? Well, what is "proper?" The real conservative ones will be, well, conservative. They'll be virgins, might not shave their armpits/legs, etc. She will probably help you save money instead of spend money (whether on her or even yourself). She may even be against the idea of a relationship with a white man, especially since foreigners are considered to be promiscuous, have loose morals, and are here to take advantage of Chinese women as play things.

6. A working girl? Well, you'll know a working girl the moment she asks you for money or for you to spend money on her. Of course, there's a difference between a prostitute and a gold-digger...but you really can't miss either one.

7. Many Chinese girls are well-educated. Very few are financially independent. Moreover, most girls still see marriage with a man who can provide for them as what they are supposed to strive towards. Getting married to a good man is still an economic decision and tool to improve one's situation in life. It takes time to become financially independent and Chinese culture still looks upon marrying late for girls as a bad thing. Getting into your late 20s while remaining unmarried is worrisome for many girls and their families. Girls also tend to have no qualms about marrying men decently older than them (as such men have had the time to establish themselves). I have several friends in their early 20s married to mid-30s men.

8. Where to find them? Hard to say. Try looking for girls that are in the workforce but not "working girls" if you know what I mean. You'll find many during lunch and at the end of the work day around major commercial centers and business districts. These girls will be closer to you in lifestyle expectations. They should have a reasonable job and finances that allows them to live a middle-class lifestyle (by China standards). This doesn't mean they won't evaluate you financially, but it does mean they're likely not abjectly poor or making their living by selling their affections/body.

9. Yes, most Chinese people are awesome. You're starting to learn that they necessarily view the world slightly differently than you do. In the end, we're all human, but our circumstances shape who we are. Keep that in mind, avoid judging, try understanding, and then learn how to work with it. There are a lot of good Chinese girls. If you go after them, be a good Western guy that understand their needs and do your best to communicate your own needs.

[Quest]

Shanghaikai, your post deserves to be sticky'ed.

[cdn_in_bj]

Kai summed it up better than I could - maybe_expat should read it over very carefully.

The important things to keep in mind is that as a westerner, you definitely will be judged by your appearance as such (both in good and bad ways - see #2 and #5 in Kai's post). If you do enter into a relationship, you may also be judged by your financial status, for the reasons that Kai stated (#4).

Regarding bars/nightclubs, all I'll say is that many Chinese girls you'll meet there are not typical. I don't know any local girls that frequent these types of places. It's not like in many western countries where hanging out at bars/clubs is an accepted social activity. It is true that, depending on the establishment, there is a good chance you will meet a "working girl" instead. Just curious, how do you know that the ones you met were not? How good was their English? I'm sorry, but those girls were making contact with you because of the fact that you are a westerner. In fact you'll experience this a lot here outside of bars, though oftentimes people are genuinely curious and just want to chat or practise their English.

Anyways, this isn't meant to discourage you, but rather to serve as a warning of the potential "traps" - none of us here want to see a good guy get hurt.

My advice is for you to get to know the culture first when you get here. I'm sure you won't have problems making friends here, but don't be rushed into making any serious commitments either - you are most vulnerable when you are new and ignorant of the cultural differences. There are lots of good people in China, but you shouldn't expect them to be the ones to seek you out. By the way, are you religious? If so, that's one way to find someone who shares the same values as you.

[shanghaikai]

Thanks for the compliments but my post was written in a "stream of consciousness." I left out one thing. A lot of the girls you may meet in nightclubs may not be prostitutes or "xiao jies" but as with many places, a lot of the establishments here pay girls to help fill out the crowd. As you can imagine, this makes the venue look more attractive to the real paying customers: men.

In Shanghai, a few hundred kuai and some free drinks will get you a young, pretty girl to sit your establishment for a few hours and go dance on the dance floor every so often. They're paid extras. These girls do this for a variety of reasons, mostly because it is free money and an easy way to enjoy the nightlife without having to pay. A lot of them are not even interested in meeting anyone there (though few are opposed to it if the right guy comes around) because it's just a job, a gig. They are, for the venue, simply part of the decor.

With these girls, your chances of meeting someone relatively "normal" (meaning they're not out to purposefully separate you from your wallet - though that seems to be the definition of "female" in general) all depends on who you meet. There are good and bad, but do understand that they have all already accepted that it is acceptable for them to earn money based on their physical beauty, even if it is just some extra pocket-change. I don't know how you may feel about a girl that is willing to do that, to go be an object to attract guys.

That said, some venues may employ girls specifically to be "xiao jies." Either that, or the girls take it upon themselves to demand "tips" for spending time with you, perhaps without the authorization of management. The club may just have hired them to fill the crowd, but they then negotiate with the johns who approach them to chat, drink, dance, or whatever for "xiao fei" (gratuity). Why do they do this? Because some people pay.

I went out with a visiting friend once and encountered a pair of these girls. We shared our alcohol with them and was just looking to share a good time but the moment one of them mentioned anything about tips, I told them they could leave. My friend was particularly annoyed, but I've gotten used to it and don't really care. It isn't worth my time to get frustrated with this phenomenon.

Yet, I can safely say that I've met tons of great, fun, nice girls in nightclubs. Some may have been paid to be there but they were nonetheless out to have a good time and weren't trying to game over any guy. Most of the time, if you are observant and know what to look for, you can identify why any girl is at any given place. Some examples:

1. If the girl is there with a friend or two, often seen sitting by themselves, maybe drinking from a bottle/pitcher, have their own bar table: probably paid to be there to fill the crowd, and obviously not making an effort to really meet anyone or party with anyone else. Just there for the pay and whatever happens.

2. If the girl is there by themselves, has their own drink, often sitting at the bar but sometimes sitting at a small bar table: probably there working, will likely eventually negotiate prices with you for services rendered.

3. If the girl is there with a large group of other girls but most likely with a mixed group of guys and girls all drinking and having fun: probably a normal girl's night out or a night out with a normal group of friends. If any of the girls in the group are "ugly" or "average," then they're probably all normal, non-working, people.

4. If the girl is with a group of older or shady looking men, possibly dressed provocatively, probably with other girls of similar appearance: probably "xiao jies" whether hired at the venue or brought by the guys in the group from outside. They're here to enjoy a free night of partying and drinking on someone else's coin by looking pretty and giving their attentions to the males in the group. They're there to stroke egos and may be paid for it. Any activities between them and the men afterwards may or may not be negotiable and may or may not be definite. Do not try approaching these girls, no matter how hot they are, mostly because the guys will think you're poaching their women. The women themselves will not likely be receptive to you anyway because they're there for the other guys and not as free-agents.

There are other identifiers but I'll leave it at this for now.

Those of us from the West are more accustomed to nightclubs and bars being places where strangers have the opportunity to meet each other to simply see what happens. We may come by ourselves or with a wingman/woman or a group of friends but we're still open to see if we meet someone cool.

This is not so for much of China and much of Asia as well. You should be able to tell by the heavy emphasis on table service here. A lot of the guys here come with their own entourage of companions, composed of friends, associates, cohorts, partners in crime, whatever and female companionship, whether friends or "xiao jies." They'll come, get a table, and party amongst themselves with everyone else in the club being a backdrop ambiance for them. They're not really there to meet random strangers because they've already arranged for themselves who they'll interact with for the night. There are cultural reasons behind this.

I've had friends (white) who did not understand these differences and were strongly rebuffed when they tried chatting up some of these hot girls hanging out at other people's tables. The more "local" clubs will have more of this phenomenon but even some of the more western clubs have this too. It's just that your odds of finding more like-minded individuals will be better in the clubs with more foreign or expat patrons. Unfortunately, those clubs will also have more Chinese gold-diggers and prostitutes too.

I've had fun in both sorts of places (more local and more expat/western) but the type of experience will obviously differ. Keep your mind open and just realize that there are opportunities for fun and meeting nice people in either.

[maybe_expat]

Shanghaikai, thanks a lot for your reponses! FAQ level stuff.

I know there is lot of learning needed about the local culture. I ain't in a hurry to rush into any deeper relationship. I just felt bit worried that the only people I would meet there were "working girls". The ones I met there last time were propably those, at least at some level.

Anyway, this piece of news is very encouraging

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-11/11/content_730390.htm

Thanks!

[muyongshi]

So are you saying you have a chance with other foreign women? I mean do you think you aren't weird??

[trufflepig]

damn shanghaikai! nice post(s), nailed it.

[Zhangsan]

Kai,

Excellent pair of posts! The latter was reposted over at the spcnet.tv forums, and I have to say that it is one of the best/most accurate posts about a certain aspect of China/Chinese society I have read in a long time. I registered here just to see what else this forum might offer, because of you.

Are you in Shanghai now? I spent a month or so bar-hopping across Tongren (nasty), Maoming (nasty), Henghshan (my favorite), et. al. Ended up blowing far too much money on the Metal Factory (Tie Gong Fang) and 100 Degrees (Baidu) on Hengshan. Much of what you said regarding Shanghai/Chinese bar culture is 100% spot on, and even I learned a few things which explained phenomenon I have witnessed almost perfectly accurately. Props!

[Zhangsan]

One further note though; although your first post regarding wallet is definitely a very real issue, I think it may be slightly exaggerated in your own mind, if you are Shanghainese/live in Shanghai. As I'm sure you know, Shanghai women are often described by other Chinese as either notoriously mercenary (by those who dislike them), or as very practical in judging the 'worth' of a person.

[shanghaikai]

LoL, wow, I never expected this sort of response!

Anyway, yes, I'm still in Shanghai. When did you spend your month here? The places you've hit up are often very touristy and older-expat-centric. In a way, they're essentially night-life tourist traps.

I've always tended to avoid those places (but have been there every so often to know) and hit up the more specific and larger nightclubs and bars throughout Shanghai. These include Bar Rouge, Attica, De la Coast on the Bund (and the smaller but quite nice bar lounges underneath like Aqua) and Bon Bon, Guandii, Muse, Volar, Babyface, Mint, Windows Too, etc. etc. that are located in the interior.

I've also been to M-Factory like you have and despite the prevalence of a lot of guys dancing with other guys, my friends and I actually had a decent time there (but wouldn't recommend going back). That said, it really doesn't matter where you go as long as you have a good group of people to have fun with.

I just tend to shy away from Tongren, Maoming, and Hengshan Lu because there tends to be a lot of questionable elements and the crowd is of a demographic mix that I don't enjoy being part of. I figure if I was out on the prowl, there are better places to go with better quality people who are less likely to be "workers" and more likely to be "normal" people out to have fun and see what happens. If I was out to oogle hot pieces of meat, there are better places too. Nonetheless, those places still have their character, but I just generally find them to be older, more run-down, "we survive because there are indiscriminate newcomers who don't know any better all the time" type of places.

Yes, Shanghainese women are stereotyped as being very practical, amongst other things. I assume that people intrinsically understand that what I said does not apply to everyone 100% and that there are exceptions.

[gougou]

Split the discussion on Shanghai nightlife into a separate thread. Kudos to you guys for bringing up Babyface and Armanni like twenty times in a thread about serious relationships

[simonlaing]

Hi ShanghaiKai, the master of the bar scene I had a couple of questions for you: You said

1. If the girl is there with a friend or two, often seen sitting by themselves, maybe drinking from a bottle/pitcher, have their own bar table: probably paid to be there to fill the crowd, and obviously not making an effort to really meet anyone or party with anyone else. Just there for the pay and whatever happens.

2. If the girl is there by themselves, has their own drink, often sitting at the bar but sometimes sitting at a small bar table: probably there working, will likely eventually negotiate prices with you for services rendered.

----

The other times were if the girl was in a big groups of girls or boy's classmates or whatever.

In the west, it is the pair of girls or singles that look around waiting to strike a conversation. In you situation these girls are not interested in meeting anyone. So I want you ask you if the pairs and single girls aren't interested in meeting guys. how should guys start conversations with girls in Chinese bars? Should we go after the big groups which have male friends which might be their boyfriends?

I have ideas about this as well but specific tips on the occasion, techniques and lines to use would be interesting to know. (It seems you have experience shifu. )

have fun,

Simon:)

[shanghaikai]

If I understand your question correctly, I think there has been a slight misunderstanding.

If there's a pair or a few girls together who are drinking and looking like they're having an honest good time, they could be fair game. But if you notice them just sort of sitting there, looking bored, they're most likely there because the club has paid them to be there. They pay these girls to sit around, occassionally dance, in order to make the club seem like it has more business and more girls than otherwise. Now, these bored-looking girls are mostly there because it is easy money and they have nothing better to do. That is different from girls who are there because they're looking to have a good time and meet boys. The former may be open to the idea of meeting someone, but they're not really making an effort to do so because their priority is just fulfilling their "contract" to get paid for their presence. The latter is there on her/their own volition, and her priority is to have a good time.

You will almost NEVER see a single, normal girl go out on the town by herself. If you ever see a single girl by herself, she's probably working, a xiao jie, a prostitute, or gold-digger (all of which are more or less in the same category really). I'm not talking about a girl who was just temporarily separated from her group for a few minutes, but a girl who is literally at a venue for hours by herself.

How approachable a girl is depends on how she presents herself and what she does while she's at the club. If she's normaly sitting at their group's table and only occassionally going up to the restroom or the dance floor with a guy, then that pretty much means she's off limits. The more smug and "badass" looking the guys at the table are, the more off-limits their women are to you, brother. Don't bother trying, the juice is not worth the squeeze anyway.

This is really an exercise in how well you can size up a situation. If you notice the girls within a group of guys are all having a riot between themselves, then the odds of them being normal girls are higher. You're looking for girls who are honestly ecstatic when not just one of the guys loses and has to drink but also when their girlfriends lose and have to drink. That usually means they're there to all have fun rather than just drinking with the guys. If the girls get up often and go to the dance floor by themselves, good sign. If they move around a lot and mingle with other people, good sign. If they don't, and just sit around their booth/table looking bored and pretty, bad sign.

This is also an exercise in knowing which bars or clubs to go to. Some places are very big on the whole table service scene, where its really just groups of people who go together, book a table, and play amongst themselves. This culture is bigger here than in the West. A lot of the times, as I've said, these groups are really just comprised of guys and their xiao jies. Sometimes, its just a group of friends. Either way, it is more communal than in the West where packs of friends go out but all know they're out there to see what strangers they meet. Not so much here. If you go to a venue where its heavy on table service and people in their own secluded booths/tables, your odds for meeting girls are lower. If you go to a place that has more emphasis on a dance floor or a bar or an open area with high bar tables, your odds are a bit better. You have to break down what the emphasis of the club is. Lots of people in booths, bad. Lots of people around a bar or dance floor, good.

Overall, it isn't a bad policy to go out with a mixed-gender group yourself, even if your stated goal is to meet other people as opposed to pimping your own flock. The idea is to have a group of people you can have fun with that are open to meeting other people to. Let's say your group is seated near or next to another group and you've determined them to be normal people out to have fun. Eye a girl you're interested in over there? Perfect, go be friendly with them and integrate your groups. Now you've got a bigger group and everyone is meeting new people, yadda yadda yadda. Introduce yourself, crack some jokes, introduce your friends, flatter some girls, flatter some guys, hand out some smokes, toast them, etc. etc. etc. This is an easy way to instantly meet a bunch of new people. It is much harder to break into another group if you're lone-wolfing it though.

Keep your eyes open, look around, try to figure out what type of girl each girl is. If you think she's available for you, then don't be afraid to go up to her and introduce yourself. Like in most of the world, the guy has to make the move first. The worst that can happen? She rejects you. Oh well, take it in stride, laugh it off, and look around again. Don't take it personally.

Oh, and you'd be surprised how much information you can get just by asking "so where's your boyfriend" (or some variation thereof) early on in a conversation. It'll help you further size up your odds and whether or not you want to invest further time. Avoid offering to buy drinks too quickly (in fact, I usually ask them when they'll buy me one) until you have a more solid feel for the situation. Buying drinks for the girl is like buying time. You SHARE a drink with them once you know they're worth sharing a drink with, not before. Don't be too desperate or aggressive, you want a girl who genuinely is open to you as much as you are with her. Remember, you're out to have a good time, so let things flow but don't wall-flower it either (you're still on a mission).

Talk to her, get to know her. If she asks you questions, good. Watch her body language. If she's done with her drink, finish yours and ask her to dance. Or go for a more direct approach and ask to sit down somewhere with her to talk. Tell her that you find her incredibly attractive. Tell her you're interested and want to get to know her more. Maybe even ask to get her number and then excuse yourself to go check up on your friends. Come back later. Say you'd like to call her sometime or go for lunch or dinner. Ask her out on a date. Ask her to join your group and meet your friends. etc. etc. etc.

Now, every guy and girl is different, so what may work for some may not work for others. Everyone has their own style and a style that matches their own. However, few people have accomplished anything by not trying something!

[Lu]

Shanghaikai, you should write a book. You're crazy to give away all this useful advice for free :-)