Differences between 選, 擇 and 揀

[Mark Yong]

In a previous thread:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/14301-characters-%e5%ad%97-vs-words-%e8%be%ad

I explored the idea that while modern Chinese is essentially multi-syllabic and character combinations are largely inevitable, the individual characters themselves have distinct meanings and are not bound morphemes (with some exceptions).

In this thread, I would like to explore an offshoot from this idea, i.e. that characters with apparently-identical meanings and nowadays appear in bound forms with other characters, actually do by themselves have distinctly-different meanings.

For my example, I have chosen the following characters: 選, 擇 and 揀 (the last one is more commonly-used as an independent character in 粵語 Cantonese).

Now, at a glance, most modern Chinese readers would say that they all mean the same thing (and I have actually tested this out with a native Chinese speaker from Shanghai). And, on top of that, many would further add that these three characters do not occur in isolation, but rather are bound forms, e.g. 選擇, 選民, 擇日, 分揀.

However, I believe that, at least historically, there are distinct meanings between these three characters that justify them being able to - if necessary - stand as independent characters with no ambiguity (as is the case with 文言 wenyan texts).

Again, as in my previous thread, I believe that in addition to the inevitable evolution of the language necessitating the compounding of characters to define more complicated ideas and concepts, the bound forms have developed due to the 異義同音 homonym phenomenon in the Chinese language. I can understand that the word for strategy was developed out of the compounding of two simpler characters 戰 war + 略 outline. But then, what about 選擇? Clearly this is not an example of compounding two simpler words to define a more complicated idea.

Consider the English equivalents: select, choose and pick. What are the differences (if any) between these three words? In my opinion, the word pick connotes the idea of not just choosing an item out of a pool of many, but also physically removing the item from that pool. So, I feel that pick is the equivalent of 揀.

The next step is more complicated. How does one differentiate between 選 and 擇 (or select and choose)? Why is it 擇日 and not 選日 (much less 揀日)?

Could one mean "to isolate a choice from a finite pool", while the other is "to isolate a choice from an infinite or undefined pool"? Or could it mean that in one instance, one has to make a choice, whereas in the other, one can decide not to choose? For the moment, that is my theory - because the number of candidates for a Parliamentary election is necessarily finite, and that at least one candidate has to emerge a victor, therefore it is 選民 and not 擇民.

I open this discussion to the Forum, but I believe that the respective radicals (i.e. 廴 and 扌) may provide some clues to their original meanings and etymology.

[mandel1luke]

選, 擇 and 揀

Yes you're right. 選, 擇 are synonyms, 揀 means to pick out.

選, 擇 = to choose

揀, 挑 = to pick out

揀, 挑 can mean 1. picking out something, the physical action; or 2. (fig) to select

揀 is more formal, 挑 more colloquial

[Mark Yong]

mandel1luke wrote:

選, 擇 are synonyms

Hi, mandel1luke,

Thanks. But does it mean that 選 and 擇 are 100% synonymous? As I said, I suspect there is a subtle difference, since we say 擇日 and not 選日.

[mandel1luke]

選 and 擇 are 100% synonymous? As I said, I suspect there is a subtle difference, since we say 擇日 and not 選日.

Semantically they are the same. But ci2 are common set phrases and you cannot make up your own phrase/word out of the blue. 擇日 is a ci2, a standard word used in modern Chinese. (that said, in Classical Chinese though, probably you may --> one word one morpheme)

if you really must have a difference, 擇 is more formal.

[mandel1luke]

Why doesn't this forum have an edit function?!

to clarify, bound morphemes exist in quantity far more in modern spoken Mandarin, than in Classical Chinese. As Classical Chinese prized brevity, the rule of thumb for CC is one morpheme one idea.

also, 擇日 I think mean to "select another day." Where comes the pool?

[Mark Yong]

mandel1luke wrote:

Why doesn't this forum have an edit function?!

It does. If you look to the right-hand-side of all entries you created (you can only edit your own entires, not other people's), you should see an "Edit" button with a symbol for a pair of scissors. You can even input the "reason for editing" (you can see that I just edited this entry and added the reason for it!). This, of course, assumes that you have already logged in!

[Mark Yong]

mandel1luke wrote:

擇日 I think mean to "select another day." Where comes the pool?

Actually, I chose 擇日 only as an example. In general, I am asking if there really is a difference (no matter how small) between 選 and 擇. Or, could it be that the difference be that for one of them, you 'have to' make a choice, whereas for the other you 'do not have to' make a choice?

I realise I am really digging deep into this enquiry. As you correctly said, in 文言 wenyan, one character maps to one morpheme, which suggests that every character stands for a very specific meaning or context, so it is unlikely that there would be two words that are semantically 100%-identical.

As an aside: Even in the case of 我, 吾 and 予/余, Michael A. Fuller suggests that in Old Chinese, each one was used differently - one could mean 我, another could mean 我們, another could mean 咱門, and yet another could mean 我的 (hence, all these words used to have similar pronunciations in Old Chinese) - but adds that this syntactic logic and distinction was lost a long time ago.

[mandel1luke]

how do you quote?

> In general, I am asking if there really is a difference (no matter how small) between 選 and 擇. Or, could it be that the difference be that for one of them, you 'have to' make a choice, whereas for the other you 'do not have to' make a choice?

I'm afraid i can't help you there. There may be a difference, it's just beyond me.

According to the Xinhua Zidian, 擇 means

择,柬选也。——《说文》 select

与恶剑无择。——《吕氏春秋·简选》。注:“别也。” (differentiate)

而错择名利。——《淮南子·俶真》。注:“取也。” (take out)

generally, the original meaning is to select, to diffentiate,

whereas 選's

本义:遣送;放遂

选,遣也。——《说文》

其母曰:“弗去,惧选。”癸卯,针适晋。——《左传·昭公元年》

假借为“柬”。挑选,选择〖pickandchoose;select〗

选,一曰择也。——《说文》

《史记》。选,引也

In 《说文》 , the original meaning of 選 is to send something somewhere (away) or to exile. The subsidiary meaning is the same as 擇. By the Song Dynasty the original meaning is lost, and 選 = 擇.

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