FSI Program teaches Taiwan mandarin?

[PinYin55]

Someone told me this today. Is it true?

I really want to be learning Beijing Mandarin.

If this IS true, what other programs teach Taiwan mandarin?

Is pimsleur tiawan dialect? What about rosetta stone?

This is a little upsetting to learn, and if its true I would really appreciate some recommendation for Beijing dialect programs.

Thanks guys.

[Xiying]

Well...Beijing dialect is not Standard Mandarin (Putonghua/Guoyu). You don't really want to be learning Beijing dialect (though being able to understand it to converse with Beijing taxi drivers would help).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Mandarin#Standard_Mandarin_and_Beijing_dialect

[Xiying]

I don't know specifically about FSI, but the Mandarin taught in respectable schools in Taiwan is intended to be Standard Mandarin, as should various learning materials such as Pimsleur. No one purposely tries to teach Taiwan Mandarin, especially to foreigners, though Taiwan Mandarin has been allowed to seep into broadcasting in the past decade.

[wai ming]

I don't believe that Taiwan Mandarin and Taiwan dialect are the same thing. The former is still (standard) Mandarin. The latter is a type of Min Nan Chinese (see Wikipedia article on Taiwanese linguistics). FSI might be teaching Taiwanese Mandarin, but I'm sure it's not teaching Taiwan dialect.

[Xiying]

No, Taiwan Mandarin (台灣國語) and Taiwan dialect (台灣話/台語) are not the same thing. Taiwan Mandarin is Taiwanese-accented Mandarin as it is commonly spoken in Taiwan (say, by street vendors in Taipei) while Taiwan dialect is the dialect of Min-nan spoken by most Taiwanese as their primary language (by, e.g., street vendors in Tainan). Taiwan Mandarin (as opposed to Standarin Mandarin) arises from having most of the population speak (primarily) a different language in the home and in informal situations, leading accents noticeably different from Standard Mandarin (Guoyu). This is true for everywhere you do in China (e.g. Cantonese Mandarin).

No, they do not teach Taiwan Mandarin in any formal situations (such as in Mandarin learning materials or language schools) just as they wouldn't teach Cantonese Mandarin to anyone. The Standard Mandarin promoted in Taipei differs little from the Standard Mandarin promoted in Beijing (a few differences in tones and vocabulary, esp. items invented after 1949).

[kudra]

I couldn't hear any particular Taiwan accent on the fsi audio. For example, all the ch, zh,sh sounds were present, whereas what I think of as Tawan acented Mandarin typically drops the "h", ci fan, for chi fan, etc.

You can't do much better than fsi for a complete 1 yr course designed by experts, with a long track record, imo.

of course no style works on all learners.

[PinYin55]

Thanks for all of the answers guys, very informative stuff.

One last thing, if I learn via FSI and other related materials, how much different will the speech in Beijing be? Are there many differences?

Also, if I learn this standard mandarin, where all can I use it?

To clarify, I know that I obviously wouldn't be able to communicate with cantonese speakers, but it seems that even Mandarin speaking cities all have their own dialect.

Shanghai, Beijing, Taiwan... I guess my question is: Just HOW different are they? Would I be able to speak in all 3 of these cities?

[atitarev]

I wonder, why Taiwan Mandarin is OK but Beijing Mandarin is not? I find Mandarin taught in Taiwan different to the standard used in mainland China - pronunciation, some tones and many neologisms.

Whatever version of Mandarin you learn, it is affected by local pronunciation and rules. At least, the Beijing version of standard Mandarin (not Beijing dialect) is known on a larger area - mainland China. The Taiwan version is taught only.

--

PinYin55, Taiwan is not a city

The topic of dialects was discussed many times in the forums, please do a search. It is recommended to learn standard Mandarin.

Dialects

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoken_Chinese

Mandarin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_%28linguistics%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Mandarin

[imron]

A bigger problem than pronunciation is more likely to be that some of the language used is a little bit dated.

[thph2006]

I can give you my perspective as a perpetual FSI learner. Each of the six or so non-optional modules use alternating situational dialogs, one representing a conversation somewhere in Taiwan, the other in Beijing. So, in any module you're going to get a little of both.

The intention is to expose you more to differences in wording and sentence patterns between the two rather than differences in dialect. Of course they do also point out where any major dialect differences exist. For example the Beijing examples all use the typical hard r endings Beijing is so famous for.

To give you an analogy of the type of differences they focus on, it's kind of like in the USA, where people in one part of the country call Coca-Cola "soda" and in another part of the country they call it "pop". That's the type of difference they want you to be aware of.

By the way, to the poster who described FSI as a one year course, I wish I had your brain! I have a feeling it's going to take me several years to get through the whole thing. Ah, so much for getting smarter as you get older!

[Xiying]

To clarify, I know that I obviously wouldn't be able to communicate with cantonese speakers, but it seems that even Mandarin speaking cities all have their own dialect.

Anyone in mainland China or Taiwan (Hong Kong and Macau excluded) educated after the 1940s will be able to understand Standard Mandarin, even though most but the highly or specially educated will speak Mandarin with a distinct accent. You will be able to get by fine in Guangzhou or Shanghai with Mandarin.

[kudra]

...language used is a little bit dated.

From Module 9 Life in China module:

Learn questions and answers about the different kind of work the street committees do. "Listen. They're talking about the patriotic cleanup campaign on the transistor radio."

Of course you can substitute "television", and "latest popular song." In fact it might be a good exercise to substitute with more modern vocabulary. But check it with a native speaker before you modernize too much.

For the foundational stuff, money, biographic information, asking directions, I'd say 90% of the modules 0-8 (maybe not society module 7) you should be ok. Just use common sense when you are building a repertoire of pick up lines for the bar.

[PinYin55]

I know I know I know. Tapei is a city, Taiwan is not.

I noticed I worded that weird as I was typing it, but I didn't think anyone would go out of their way to correct me on it.

[atitarev]

...language used is a little bit dated.

Which one do you mean, Imron?

Are you referring to FSI course to the current or Taiwan Mandarin vs Beijing Mandarin?

If you mean Taiwan's Mandarin is different, I agree, the more it is important to learn the language that you're going to use in the future. I find Taiwanese resources are not bad for learning Mandarin because all the basics are the same but some advanced stuff is different. None of the version is worse but they are different.

Also, I find it useful if you compare the versions to see what is the "core" Chinese and what are those minor differences:

For example 劳驾[勞駕] láojià is only used in North-East China but not used in the South or in Taiwan.

I noticed I worded that weird as I was typing it, but I didn't think anyone would go out of their way to correct me on it.

I hope I didn't upset you too much, PinYin55

[imron]

Which one do you mean, Imron?

I was referring to the FSI course with some of the Mainland examples e.g. they mention that everyone should be addressed 'comrade' instead of mr/miss/etc, which is no longer really the case.

[bomaci]

You don't really want to be learning Beijing dialect (though being able to understand it to converse with Beijing taxi drivers would help).

I am just curious. Why wouldn't you want to learn Beijing dialect. I find learning Beijing dialect much more interesting than learning Putonghua. Since the first one is a lively language full of fun and intersting expressions, while the second one is basically a constructed language which very much resembles the Beijing dialect but devoid of all regionalisms. If you are going to be living in Beijing or you have a lot of interaction with people from Beijing, learning a bit of beijing dialect won't hurt.

[Xiying]

I am just curious. Why wouldn't you want to learn Beijing dialect. I find learning Beijing dialect much more interesting than learning Putonghua.

I mean that if you have a choice of learning one (as in which one to learn first) you should aim at the Putonghua because it is more widely understood, dignified and appropriate in non-colloquial situations, etc. But by all means learn Beijinghua if you can! Standard Mandarin makes for some really crappy swearing. All instances in road rage I've observed in Taipei have been performed in Taiwanese.