Can Foreigners Adapt to Chinese Culture?

[muyongshi]

On July 8th, 2004 at 8:10am Roddy, in this thread, wrote:

If anyone wants to reopen the topic, they're welcome. Hopefully it'll be more useful second time around.

And I want to reopen it

I read through the entire thing and didn't find many useful opinions in it but I was hoping to have a nice, friendly discussion on the degree to which a foreigner can understand AND assimilate into Chinese Culture. I personally think it is a moot point to argue the can or can't (heck it's a moot point to argue anyway) but I think a good discussion would be on the degree of understanding we can obtain and the degree of assimilation that can be attained.

I was thinking about this because I have a teacher that anytime we sit there not understanding what she means and (more as a result of disagreement than anything else) she will immediately say it is because we don't understand culture. Now, in regards to this specific teacher, it has been proven on many occasions that what her viewpoint is merely opinion and not a cultural viewpoint (long story) but it raises the interesting question of what is cultural understanding and what is merely a person's personal viewpoint. Obviously culture plays a part in forming many opinions but that is not always the case.

So topic reopen for discussion! Have at 'er and please do play nice

[adrianlondon]

I've had quite a few extremely odd conversations with mainland Chinese, both on MSN and in real life. These tend to be male, in their 20s. Not because they're the strange ones, but because they're who I wanted to chat with ;)

It seems many people (based on my skewed sample) can't formulate an argument at all, or come up with an opinion. This must be down to the way they're taught at school.

Once you start to prove someone wrong, or simply open up the possibility that another view point may exist, they revert to the "this is China, you don't understand" argument, even if the topic at hand has nothing to do with China at all.

From complex conversations (trying to explain the differences between China/Taiwan and Great Britain / Northern Ireland) to simple ones (why don't you open the menu and order something your Mum may not have cooked) it's, well, odd.

I know "odd" isn't a good word to summarise this, but some conversations simply leave me so confused as to how the other person formulated their idea (I've learnt that they didn't, they just regurgitate something they were taught even if they can then say something totally contradictory a few seconds later) that "odd" is the only way I can describe it.

I'm sure they view the fact I use analogies and examples from one scenario to help explain/learn another equally "odd".

[muyongshi]

I do understand the feeling of "odd" as you so adequately put it and I do get this but not all the time... I think maybe I don't ask why as much as I just "when in rome do as the romans do" but you mentioned something about education...

Are you saying that you think they were taught/raised up to believe that their cultural (even though some of the things you mentioned aren't necessarily unique to their culture- why not order another dish for example...) is non comprehensible to the outside world or that they are just taught "don't ask" type of attitude?

I mean we have ideas too that aren't formulated in logical thinking and then once we are confronted with them we realize that (I think many on this forums though just have developed that skill a tad better than others and we are more willing in said circumstance then to reanalyze and then adapt our thinking...)

[liuzhou]

I do hope you mean a 'moot point' rather than a 'mute' one!

[muyongshi]

What did you call me??? Thanks...changed it...

[liuzhou]

You only changed one of them!

[muyongshi]

Who wrote that twice?! It sure wasn't me...

[gato]

Once you start to prove someone wrong, or simply open up the possibility that another view point may exist, they revert to the "this is China, you don't understand" argument, even if the topic at hand has nothing to do with China at all.

The mainland Chinese education system trains people to be close-minded. People are used to regurgitating what the teacher says and have a hard time formulating new arguments. This is particularly true for people who are trained in 文科 (non-math/science/engineering). 理科 students, at least, are encouraged to solve math/physics problems in new ways, but not everyone can transfer those problem-solving skills to other areas of life.

When they have to explain something they haven't thought about before, they tend to become very inarticulate. When dealing with foreigner, it's obviously much easier to just say "it's too hard for you to understand," when what they really mean is that they are not articulate enough to explain it, particularly in English, but the same problem exists when the conversation is in Chinese, though to a lesser degree.

I know "odd" isn't a good word to summarise this, but some conversations simply leave me so confused as to how the other person formulated their idea (I've learnt that they didn't, they just regurgitate something they were taught even if they can then say something totally contradictory a few seconds later) that "odd" is the only way I can describe it.

The difference between Western thinking and Chinese thinking is clear if you compare Socrates to Confucius. Socrates focused on basic definition of words and logical connection between arguments (e.g. syllogism). Confucius's "method" was usually to state that the ancestors did it this way, therefore we ought to do it this way.

[yonglin]

For some reason, i also - just like adrianlondon - usually end up talking with guys in their 20s on msn/skype/qq. However, I've talked to a few (not many) who were extremely bright and could make stunningly informed, lucid and coherent arguments on complex topics, including social and political issues in the Chinese context. Nonetheless, there is little doubt that the education systems of China and most Western countries are quite different.

As for cultural assimilation, I would say that this is perfectly possible - in theory. However, I would argue that it requires a few preconditions, which might or might not exist in China.

1. Willingness to assimilate. I think this is the major reason that foreigners in China (as well as foreigners in a lot of Western countries) never assimilate. Just as argued in the previous thread, many people from Western countries have the idea that their culture is superior to the Chinese. After all, their own countries enjoy a higher level of economic development and political stability, and are probably a major hotspot for innovation and research. "Assimilation" (as opposed to "integration") essentially requires abandoning your native culture, which many people are quite unwilling to do, especially if they find the new culture to be inferior. [Personally, I'd say that the current situation in China is the consequence of a complex series of historical contingencies, but I know that many people would rather attribute it to Chinese culture as such (claiming that it is intrinsically "backwards").]

2. Time. It takes about 15-20 years or so before a child is appropriately "culturally assimilated". Of course, we usually don't use the word "cultural assimilation" to describe kids growing up, but if you think about raising children, it is essentially the same thing as assimilating them: i.e., making them understand cultural and communicative subtleties and the moral values and ideas of their native communities. Naturally, the more different your own culture is from the culture you wish to assimilate into, the longer it will take. I know of a guy who's originally German but came to Sweden around 20. When I got to know him (he was then about 28 or 29 or so), he was perfectly assimilated, about to complete his PhD thesis in law at Stockholm University and complained about the poor Swedish writing skills of Swedish law students. My estimate would be that it would take at least 10-15 years for a Westerner to assimilate into Chinese culture, even if the conditions are ideal.

3. Someone willing to assimilate you. If the natives of the new country don't want you to assimilate, you cannot assimilate. This is simply because in order to be appropriately indoctrinated by the new culture, you would have to be treated like a native by the natives in the new country. I think this (in addition to 1) could be a major reason why Westerners assimilate less readily in China than people of Asian decent. And if you think about it, how many Westerns in China can - honestly - say that the Chinese treat them just like other Chinese?

[dalaowai]

I think that it's impossible for foreigners to truly adapt to Chinese culture due to a few reasons.

- Chinese society doesn't want to allow us to fully integrate into their culture

- We know too much about China's history, therefore we will always "not understand" Chinese culture

[muyongshi]

"Assimilation" (as opposed to "integration") essentially requires abandoning your native culture, which many people are quite unwilling to do

So what then are you proposing integration is? I think I understand what you are saying but not too sure...

And also the obvious question: Does it really require an abandoning of your native culture? What about kids that grow up (essentially) in both cultures? Are they simply integrated into both cultures but not assimilated?

Other than the abandonment that you propose as necessary for assimilation into a culture what are the things that would define (in practicality) the difference of integration and assimilation?

[muyongshi]

- We know too much about China's history, therefore we will always "not understand" Chinese culture

I think I see what you're getting at but ummm... HUH???

[md1101]

before i begin i better say what i mean by assimilate. to assimilate into chinese culture means taking on their beliefs, ideals and ways of thinking to such an extent so as to have little trouble understanding the people around you (china is a big place so lets take beijing as this place) and no problem being accepted by them because you feel like a part of them.

can you truly assimilate into chinese culture? i would say for me.. NO. never gonna happen. i might gain a greater understanding about chinese culture and as a result have more meaningful discussions... but thats about it. i already know of too many things i find odd or disagree with.

if i was to be constructive then i'd say you need to start assimilating by having a greater deal of respect for the chinese than most of us do. i.e views like "they aren't brought up to argue in school" isn't going to help because it means you've already made up your mind that the reason your attempted arguments/discussions aren't going well is because THEY have problems constructing an argument. arguments like this usually occur due to a language and cultural barrier not because they can't debate because "debating is not encouraged under communist rule" - although that is tempting to believe at times because we all serach for ways to convince ourselves we are right.

im sure its possible to gain a reasonable understanding of chinese culture. but to assimiliate? i don't think id have any chance of doing so because too assimilate id have to view the world differently and i'm not going to be able to view the world like the majority of chinese people because i wasn't brought up there. these experiences shape our personalities and ways of thinking which make us who we are. plus there is one more MAJOR thing you need. and thats the WANT to assimilate. and i don't really have that want.

[yonglin]

Other than the abandonment that you propose as necessary for assimilation into a culture what are the things that would define (in practicality) the difference of integration and assimilation?

Sorry for not making me sufficiently clear.

This was a huge debate about this a few years ago over here. The official political stance in my country is that we only want immigrants to "integrate", e.g., function socially, professionally and economically in our society without abandoning their own culture. On a practical level, this would mean that people of minority cultures celebrate their own festivals (not Swedish ones), speak their own language at home, and lead their lives according to their cultural customs. Assimilation, on the other hand, would imply not speaking your own language, not celebrating your own festivals, etc. Integration implies the coexistence of two different cultures, whilst assimilation implies adopting the dominant culture.

On a more subtle level, it probably has more to do with "thinking as a Chinese" or not.

I think that many kids growing up in two cultures are not really assimilated in any one of them (although it would superficially seem that they are assimilated in both). Of course, they could be assimilated in one of them (a kind of "dominant" culture...?) and have a very high level of understanding of the other. A lot of immigrant kids here don't consider themselves properly Swedish, but definitely not properly Iraqi either. There has been some research done on so-called "third culture kids" as well (there's a wikipedia article on this one).

We know too much about China's history, therefore we will always "not understand" Chinese culture

I don't see how this works. Either you must be claiming (1) that there are no Chinese people who have profound knowledge of Chinese history, or (2) that you cease to be Chinese once you gain this knowledge. Although it may be the case that the availability of historical material/teaching on some periods is fairly limited within the Mainland, there are a lot of Chinese elsewhere (US, Canada, HK, Singapore, Australia, etc.) having very profound knowledge of Chinese history and who still are very Chinese (if you open an academic journal published in a Western country on Chinese history or politics, you will notice that the majority of authors are not called Smith or Johnson.

[jonaspony]

Assimilation? That's sounds like white fella talk to me. So I suppose my answer would be: no, you can't assimilate. Or, why would you think you could assimilate with a fairly homogenous culture? Or, why would you want to?

I suppose you would want to assimilate with the wealthy, urban part of the culture? Perhaps with the top 2%? Certainly not like the lower 50% on less that US$1 per day. You wouldn't want to assimilate in the local hospitals (though I could have assimilated with some of the nurses I've met).

My Uighur friends from Xinjiang are constantly being told, "You don't look Chinese at all." And while their Putonghua is better than mine will ever be, they seem constantly aware of its flaws. I'll be happy to let them assimilate first, and if it works out well, then I'll get the eye surgery.

With the above limitations, I can see myself assimilating with the present, but not with the not-too-distant past, and probably not with the future. Hell, I don't even want to assimilate with the weather, which is bloody awful. But keep me in the shade, or in heated rooms, let me be a welcome stranger, and I will assimilate as well as an eight foot tall, deaf mute albino would in this culture.

The answer is no. But it is still an interesting question.... cheers for it

[md1101]

very nicely said, yonglin.

[gato]

The only way I can see assimilation happening is if a white baby is adopted and raised by a Chinese family that lives in China (instead of abroad). Even then, total assimilation is not assured because the kid would still look white and therefore would be treated as a foreigner by strangers.

The same thing is true for Asians living in the West. They can assimilate to a certain extent if they grew up there. But since those who have immigrant parents will inevitably be influenced by the home environment, particularly in terms of personality traits (like outgoingness and such). Physical appearance is a barrier to assimilation in the West, too, but to a lesser degree than it is in China.

[muyongshi]

This was a huge debate about this a few years ago over here. The official political stance in my country is that we only want immigrants to "integrate", e.g., function socially, professionally and economically in our society without abandoning their own culture. On a practical level, this would mean that people of minority cultures celebrate their own festivals (not Swedish ones), speak their own language at home, and lead their lives according to their cultural customs. Assimilation, on the other hand, would imply not speaking your own language, not celebrating your own festivals, etc. Integration implies the coexistence of two different cultures, whilst assimilation implies adopting the dominant culture.

Great definition! I think then that it would be better to say what would it take for us as foreigners to integrate into Chinese society? Or does this still fall under the prerequisite of needing to have someone (ie the culture) wanting us to integrate?

We as foreigners could integrate (in my opinion) in I think a majority of ways into the cultural without ever having to abandon our roots and in fact many of us I believe are already doing this. We have come to an understanding of culture, language, habits, rites/rituals (holidays/customs) and we speak Chinese out of our homes while in our homes (for the most part) we use our native language and still maintain our own holidays. Now obviously this is up for debate too and I am still interesting in the varying degrees of achievability and the necessary (guestimates) time to do so.

Would it be safe to say that in 5 years (I'm thinking with focused language study for at least 2 years) a person is able to achieve a basic level integration into a society? They would at this point have gone through many cultural adjustments and all that that would entail (ie facing the differences coming to understanding of the differences and moving into a kind of integrated way of habit and routine), have a foundation of basic language, would hopefully have learned basic cultural rites (how to be polite, holidays, and other things) as well as have an understanding of the general history of the language and culture (language here is VERY important as we can understand the history but if we have not looked at in from the perspective of their own language we have a moot point). I think that this is a reasonable start to a full process of integration. Now obviously we can't change our skin (except through some very experimental surgery's) and so in that way we can't integrate but I think this is where have already put a line down between the difference of assimilation and integration...

[gato]

This was a huge debate about this a few years ago over here. The official political stance in my country is that we only want immigrants to "integrate", e.g., function socially, professionally and economically in our society without abandoning their own culture. On a practical level, this would mean that people of minority cultures celebrate their own festivals (not Swedish ones), speak their own language at home, and lead their lives according to their cultural customs. Assimilation, on the other hand, would imply not speaking your own language, not celebrating your own festivals, etc. Integration implies the coexistence of two different cultures, whilst assimilation implies adopting the dominant culture.

There was a lot of debate about multiculturalism and assimilation vs. integration in the U.S. universities in the 90s. I thought a lot about it myself as a Chinese who grew up and lived in the U.S. for 20 years. My view is that "integration" defined as such is just a political euphemism for the failure of assimilation. For many reasons -- e.g. resistance on the part of both the natives or the newcomers -- assimilation is a long process that takes many generations. Political liberals feel bad about this failure and want to make failure look like a success, so they call it "integration," cultures living side-by-side in peaceful co-existence. But this "integration" is unstable, and unless you segregate the cultures (in Islamic or other ethnic schools, for example), assimilation will arrive eventually, maybe not with the first or second generation of immigrants, but eventually, particularly when they start to marry and have kids with the natives.

[muyongshi]

But this "integration" is unstable, and unless you segregate the culture (in Islamic or other ethnic schools, for example), assimilation will arrive eventually, maybe not with the first or second generation of immigrants, but eventually, particularly when they start to marry and have kids with the natives.

But it is very clearly evident that we whities can never be assimilated (and by that I mean called Chinese). We will forever, even if married in be none as foreigners. I can't become Chinese, like you or your children could more readily become a Britian, and my children even if I marry a Chinese woman and all I do is live as a Chinese abandoning my roots, will still not be Chinese. That seems to be the general consensus in China (maybe it's different in Beijing and Shanghai but I don't live there so ....).

I had a friend who once illustrated it like this.

I can never become Chinese...

I marry a Chinese person and have kids... how do the rest of the Chinese look at it... confused

My children remarry into Chinese society and again have kids... same question, answer: even more confused

I know this is a weird example but the point being Chinese only view you as Chinese if you are 100% born Chinese. No exceptions. But hey if I'm wrong... do tell me...

I like your thing about the liberals...so true, so true...

But I disagree on the principle of inability to actually integrate and the inability of two cultures to not be able to coexist. I think it's possible but the thing is that there is a now just a multiplicity that will mark the new society.