Can Foreigners Adapt to Chinese Culture?

[jonaspony]

Great definition!

Yes it is. that Yonglin writes real nice. But integration is just another form of an assimilation, just watered down for political effect. Gato says it well, (again). "integration" defined as such is just a political euphemism for the failure of assimilation.

Yonglin's earlier post was on target saying,"If the natives of the new country don't want you to assimilate, you cannot assimilate." (Although 'natives' went out of usage at the same time as assimilation, for the same reason). I would say it is not so much up to you, although your attitude will determine how easy it is for you to bear.

I am sorry, but seem to be missing your point now. All sorts of folks integrate into every society all the time. Even me, with certain success. But I want to live in China, although I will not assimilate, because I prefer the odd stuff there to the odd stuff here in Australia. Of course I still get frustrated over certain things, but no more than I do here, probably less. I suppose I question the need to 'belong'. Societies change all the time, and we are constantly adjusting, integrating.

[gato]

But it is very clearly evident that we whities can never be assimilated (and by that I mean called Chinese).

I agree. See my post #17 above. Maybe when foreigners reach a critical mass in China, it'll be easier. But to reach a critical mass (probably at 5% of the population), a lot more foreigners would have to come to China. Shanghai, which probably the most foreigners of all mainland cities (thus, excluding HK), has about 15 million people. 5% of that would be 750,000 people. How many foreigners are in Shanghai today?

[muyongshi]

I was making a contrast to the second part of your post where you say that it is also the same (all be it varying degrees) for asians moving west. I don't agree there at all. I see that type of assimilation happen quite frequently and within one generation.

[gato]

I was making a contrast to the second part of your post where you say that it is also the same (all be it varying degrees) for asians moving west. I don't agree there at all. I see that type of assimilation happen quite frequently and within one generation.

I assuming you are addressing this to me. I obviously disagree (actually you are disagreeing with me, hehe). So I would ask that you re-examine your data (i.e. what you "saw") that made you believe this. Assimilation for Chinese immigrants to the U.S. is still very incomplete in the first generation; it's better in the second generation. If I were to give it a number, I would say that the first generation (meaning someone born in the country of immigrant parents) on average is only 70% assimilated, whereas the second generation is 90%.

[muyongshi]

What I mean when I say within the first generation is the generation that is born inside the second culture (or having moved there at a very young age ...very very young at most 5 years old)

[Senzhi]

'Assimilation' & 'cultural understanding' ... phew ... two too difficult expressions for a simple soul like me.

So I'll keep it simple:

Two of my best friends are Chinese. They respect me and my culture, even though they might not understand it in full, less agree with it.

I feel the same about them.

I love them as people, not as Chinese or being part of Chinese culture. So do they love me: a simple soul in an enormous cultural environment, trying to do his best in life every day, getting along with the people around him.

I think the expression 'accepting' is more key here than 'assimilation'. (Oops, there goes me being 'simple').

Food for thought: being Belgian and looking at the political situation there right now, I'm not sure if I still understand my own culture anymore ...

[muyongshi]

I don't know that I just explained that very well so let me have another go...

What I mean is that if a child moves with his parents to another culture (in our current example a western nation from an asian nation) when he is 5 or under or if he is born there he will be assimilated completely. Yes there are exceptions so if I was to say a number I would say 97% of the time it would happen. Now as there are so many scenarios, there will be so many varied results (ie a 20 year old [single by the way] moves to the US marries and has kids in this new culture he will be assimilated 10 times more easily than say a 50 year old that grew up in their first culture and moved over already having kids and what not). So there is a lot of room for debate on this but this is what I have seen.

And yes apparently we do disagree but I am open to dissuasion...

Food for thought: being Belgian and looking at the political situation there right now, I'm not sure if I still understand my own culture anymore ...

Tell me about it...so many times I feel like I don't know my culture any more...even less want to! Don't get me wrong I love my country and my background but some of the current "culture trends" go against my beliefs and really make me sick....

I guess this goes to prove the early post that mentions these things are always in a state of flux and we are continually adapting and changing...

[Woodpecker]

I know this is a weird example but the point being Chinese only view you as Chinese if you are 100% born Chinese. No exceptions. But hey if I'm wrong... do tell me...

I don't think that's quite what you meant, muyongshi! Do you mean that the Chinese will only view you as Chinese if you are ethnically so? Because your statement seems to imply that a Caucasian child born in China will be considered Chinese, and I'm not convinced that is true.

My view is that "integration" defined as such is just a political euphemism for the failure of assimilation. - gato

But that implies that the government wants all its immigrants to give up their culture. Is that so? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a genuine question.

[gato]

My view is that "integration" defined as such is just a political euphemism for the failure of assimilation.

But that implies that the government wants all its immigrants to give up their culture. Is that so? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a genuine question.

"Political euphemism" means that people who care about this kind of thing likes to put a happy face on something that one shouldn't necessarily be so happy about (i.e. failure of assimilation). These people aren't necessarily in government. Most of them are professors with liberal politics. In the U.S., many of them are in the Ethnic Studies department and English department. Does Ethnic Studies department exist in other countries?

This distinction between "integration" and "assimilation" probably came out of the universities. "Integrate" does not historically mean "existing side-by-side," but rather has been given that meaning by people who want to contrast it with "assimilation."

[muyongshi]

I don't think that's quite what you meant, muyongshi! Do you mean that the Chinese will only view you as Chinese if you are ethnically so?

Well that is what I meant... Meaning both of their parents are 100% Chinese as opposed to many western nations that are now mixes of so many descents... So just saying ethnically so is more of a clarification

But we can also look at it this way... If a child is born of a Korean mother and Chinese father (God forbid it is Japanese and a Chinese ) unless he/she inherits so very distinctive Korean features and unless the people know the parents he would automatically be considered Chinese by those who meet him/her on the street. But now a white father and Chinese mother the features will have a greater variance and so those who see him/her on the street will automatically know he/she is a "foreigner" and they will not consider him/her Chinese.

(disclaimer: it is very possible the features won't be strong enough to tell but the ratio of character trait differences between two asians versus a white and an asian can lead us to make an assumption for discussion sake)

Nobody has yet to mention a degree of understanding of culture, all we've talked about is assimilation and integration issues. Does everyone think that it is a non issue to even discuss the understanding aspect and that it is just obvious that we can gain strong and deep understanding of the culture?

I personally feel that outsiders can in many cases come to a greater understanding of a culture than the people themselves can. So much of our culture is programmed into us and becomes a "black box". It happens but we don't know how it really works, and so many times it's an outsider who really analyzes everything. In the examples of people who say well it's just our culture and you can't understand it, I do not find this relevant at all. Usually we are asking questions that stem from attempting to learn or find out culture and they then lead to this type of response because the people themselves do not understand it.

"Integrate" does not historically mean "existing side-by-side," but rather has been given that meaning by people who want to contrast it with "assimilation."

So then what does it mean? If they are contrasting it with assimilation (and we already know what assimilation means) then what is integration mean (if it doesn't mean co-existing)?

[gato]

"Integrate" does not historically mean "existing side-by-side," but rather has been given that meaning by people who want to contrast it with "assimilation."

So then what does it mean? If they are contrasting it with assimilation (and we already know what assimilation means) then what is integration mean (if it doesn't mean co-existing)?

That's what it means now because people (in the academy) have defined it to mean such, to contrast with "assimilation." In other words, this definition of "integration" was a reaction to "assimilation." It's a political concept. What I said above was about the "historic" or original meaning of the word "integrate." Originally, "integrate" was used to contrast with "segregate." It's only later that a meaning was attached to it to make it different from "assimilate."

See here for the Merriam-Webster definition:

http://m-w.com/dictionary/integrate

Main Entry: in·te·grate

Etymology: Latin integratus, past participle of integrare, from integr-, integer

transitive verb

1 : to form, coordinate, or blend into a functioning or unified whole : UNITE

3 a : to unite with something else b : to incorporate into a larger unit

4 a : to end the segregation of and bring into equal membership in society or an organization b : DESEGREGATE

intransitive

"To form, coordinate, or blend into a functioning or unified whole" does not naturally imply "existing side-by-side." This is a new meaning created by liberal academics.

[muyongshi]

Thanks for the clarification...that is what I was asking!

Hmm...

So can we as foreigners ever blend into a functioning or unified whole (still referring to the Chinese) as opposed to assimilation which requires a change into that causes us to look and sound like them?

[gato]

So can we as foreigners ever blend into a functioning or unified whole (still referring to the Chinese) as opposed to assimilation which requires a change into that causes us to look and sound like them?

Have you been to HK? It seems possible there, to a degree.

[muyongshi]

Yep, lived there myself for 3 months...

So to what degree would you think that it is possible? Honestly in my opinion of HK, it seemed more of a segregated society than a functioning blend. And I would mainly attribute that to the fact that the majority of the foreigners do not speak cantonese.

[gato]

So to what degree would you think that it is possible? Honestly in my opinion of HK, it seemed more of a segregated society than a functioning blend. And I would mainly attribute that to the fact that the majority of the foreigners do not speak cantonese.

Let's say you spoke Cantonese, work in a bank in HK, have local colleagues, and maybe even a local spouse. I think the kind of integration you are seeking is possible in that situation. Non-Chinese people are everywhere in Hong Kong. They make up a much higher percentage of population than 5%, which I said above would be necessary for critical mass. As a result, I think Hong Konger are much more accepting of foreigners than mainlanders would be. A foreigner who can't speak the local language obviously won't be able to integrate very effectively. But a mainlander who can't speak Cantonese can't integrate very well in HK, either.

What was your experience?

[muyongshi]

I understand what you are saying and I agree that IF the foreigner speaks cantonese what you said is very possible....

What I am thinking though is that the majority of foreigners there did not speak cantonese (I don't know numbers but the majority of those I ran into don't speak cantonese).

On a funny note it depends on how you view accepting...I don't get the stares in HK (even though I lived in New Territories where I got more stares) than I get in mainland so if ignoring me is accepting me then yes HK is very accepting

For the critical mass is it 5% total or 5% who are functioning in language and the society (basically not having created their own sub-society who speak their native language and only have contact with those who speak their native language)?

Also does anyone know how many foreigners there are in China right now? Specifically those of non-asian decent... (meaning white!)

[gato]

On a funny note it depends on how you view accepting...I don't get the stares in HK (even though I lived in New Territories where I got more stares) than I get in mainland so if ignoring me is accepting me then yes HK is very accepting

Exactly. In the U.S., kids are taught in school to be tolerant of those who are different. But "tolerant" comes from the word "tolerate." Think about what "tolerate" means.

[carlo]

This discussion on assimilation vs integration reminds me of the official line on 少数民族. Chinese policy towards minority people promotes "integration" as opposed to forced "assimilation". One universal human trait across cultures is the ability of intellectuals to obfuscate reality with carefully chosen words.

People assume that assimilation is something that one has to work hard for in order to achieve. But in most cases, assimilation just happens. Take children of foreigners born in Japan. To my surprise, I fairly recently realized that a number of them speaks Japanese as their first language. Japanese society, many would argue, is much less open then Chinese society: even Korean-descent "zainichi" (在日朝鲜人) who look like, talk like and behave like native Japanese, cannot assimilate. Yet would you rather think of them as "Koreans", or simply as another subgroup within Japanese society?

Whether society at large is willing to accept you is obviously very important, but it is only one side of the equation. A former colleague of mine grew up in a Beijing hutong. One day he said to me, "I don't really speak pure Beijinghua: my great-grandfather was born in Shandong." What he meant to say was that his family environment wasn't 100% pure Beijing, so his cultural make-up wasn't either. This is a very Chinese thing to say. But from an objective point of view, this statement doesn't make much sense: he certainly can't speak any 19th-century Shandong dialect either.

My own experience (I'm seen as fairly 'integrated' among my circle of friends) goes sth like this: people who know you sooner or later tend to forget that you are a foreigner. Out there among strangers anything goes, from people gaping at you as if you just dropped in from Mars, to no reaction whatsoever. Personally I don't know that many Asian-looking foreigners who successfully integrate into Chinese society either (except for people of Chinese descent, mostly with Chinese surnames, who speak the language well). The language barrier seems just as powerful, if not more so, than the fact of looking different.

[muyongshi]

Yeah I've never like that word. And I especially don't like those people that are can't tolerate others intolerance

[muyongshi]

My own experience (I'm seen as fairly 'integrated' among my circle of friends) goes sth like this: people who know you sooner or later tend to forget that you are a foreigner. Out there among strangers anything goes, from people gaping at you as if you just dropped in from Mars, to no reaction whatsoever. Personally I don't know that many Asian-looking foreigners who successfully integrate into Chinese society either (except for people of Chinese descent, mostly with Chinese surnames, who speak the language well). The language barrier seems just as powerful, if not more so, than the fact of looking different.

I can relate...Once I was with some friends looking at some 地主's house and i went into a room by myself. Of course one of the other people there saw a foreigner and of course pointed it out to his companions. I then walked out and proceeded to tell my friend in a very excited/surprised (basically like the Chinese do) voice that there was a foreigner and all 3 of them starting looking around trying to see this foreigner. Of course I started busting up laughing but only one of them got it. Had to explain it to the others. So I do agree that there is a level at which your friends won't view as fully a foreigner but once it comes around to one of those "cultural" things they will still look at you and say well you're a foreigner...