Can Foreigners Adapt to Chinese Culture?

[gato]

An article about foreigners in China sending their kids to local schools for a "real Chinese education."

http://chinese.wsj.com/gb/20070928/exp172135.asp

选择真正的“中国式教育”

2007年09月28日

任何一个带着孩子到国外居住的家长都必须要决定到底让孩子接受哪种教育。家长们要么努力为孩子创造一个尽可能接近本土的教育环境，要么将孩子们推向新天地，让他们完全融入当地的学校。

[simonlaing]

I think the sub society idea is a good one.

In Shanghai there are 300,000 plus non chinese residents I think. the slight Majority are Japanese and Korean with Europeans and other making up close to 150,000.

However like HK, I think many of these westerners live in worlds that do not require the use of mandarin. Shanghai chinese people more than other chinese mainland cities have decent english.

My friends tell me Vancouver has had so many Chinese immigrants that there are areas (Chinatowns, and suburbs) of the city where you can go weeks without speaking english.

I wanted to break down the Adapt, Intergrate , assimilate word play.

Can westerners adapt to China, learn to use chopsticks, speak chinese, learn the meaing of Mianzi and guanxi, haggle for vegetables, ?---- sure

Can the Chinese and westerners intergrate so they can live together for a long time, allow them to intermarry, run businesses, make money, teach their kids, provide green cards, etc..--- yes they are practical and definitely can.

Can Foreigners be completely assimilated by the country to change citzenship, be allowed to restricted military areas like normal chinese, be able to serve in the armed services like Green Cards in the US do, request help from embassies when traveling, be seen as speaking as Chinese Da Shan would? Perhaps. Would you say Da Shan has intergrated or been assimilated. ------ Maybe, this may be a lag from China opening to the world.

These are some thoughts on concrete aspects of Chinese acceptance. I am happy with intergration. What do you think?

have fun,

Simon:)

[Senzhi]

I fully agree with you Simon!

I strongly believe society is like a 'marriage' of cultures: it makes you stronger by growing towards each other. Over time, it does change you more like your partner, but it doesn't make you loose your own heritages (incl. bad habits )

[shanghaikai]

You guys are having this conversation with the wrong people: yourselves. I understand it is likely because a bona fide local Chinese person couldn't engage you all to this depth but that's sort of the point, isn't it? Go integrate by sharing these complex ideas and ideals with "them." The less exposure to such things, the less likely it'll ever happen. Now, is it your place to go force it up them? Perhaps not, but then we'll haven't changed anything, have we?

[muyongshi]

Looking up the different Chinese words now for assimilate, integrate,

One of the reasons that we are having it here though is because there are Chinese people on these forums and at least one has been taking part in the discussion.

Yes I do agree with you that we should maybe have this discussion with our Chinese friends and neighbors as well but there is nothing wrong or counterproductive to having the same discussion here.

[shanghaikai]

Oh no, don't get me wrong. The questions I asked were largely to make a point rather than stop your discussions here.

[muyongshi]

Well now I'm going to make a point .

Point well made...

[imron]

Would you say Da Shan has intergrated or been assimilated. ------ Maybe,

I don't think Da Shan is a good example. From what I understand he spends a lot of time out of China, and his children are growing up in Canada. A better example would be Sidney Shapiro.

When Sidney Shapiro came to China from America in 1947, he had no idea he would eventually marry a Chinese woman and make China his home. Sidney became a Chinese citizen in 1963 and did not step again on American soil until 1971. In 1983, he became a National Committee member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference.

[carlo]

I found Shapiro's autobiography "I chose China" very touching. You may not always agree with the politics, but he seems to be a nice old man.

As an example of assimilation that just happens, there are people like director and producer Carma Hinton, who was too young at the time to choose anything:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1525735

http://news.phoenixtv.com/phoenixtv/73001000784363520/20061213/907576.shtml

As you can hear from the radio interview, she's the mirror image of an American-born Chinese: her English has a perfect Beijing accent.

If you read the Phoenix feature story, though, it's obvious she had a pretty tough time growing up.

她的“不伦不类”开始令她不尴不尬。1966年春北京市中学生运动会，卡玛在铅球比赛中打破全国少年纪录，却因为是外国人而被取消成绩。“当时我们心里都特难过。”当年101中田径队一位女同学回忆，“她是代表学校参赛，我们根本就没想到她是美国人，可那时的政治就是这样。卡玛当时啥也没说，可能挺无奈的，她还那么小嘛。”

还有更让卡玛无奈的。一次，学校举行抗美援越游行，一路上高喊口号：“打倒美帝”、“美国佬滚回去”。卡玛走在队伍中，心里说不出是什么滋味。她也想支持越南人民，却因自己的金发碧眼而背着“美帝国主义”的“罪名”。“所以她不知道该怎么办，跟着喊还是不喊？”那位女同学说，“对她来讲，那时候是很为难的。”

在那个“以阶级斗争为纲”的年代，“洋鬼子”卡玛注定被人怀疑、排斥。初二写作文《我的志愿》，卡玛因为“喜欢在外边野跑”，就写想当个勘探队员。有个同学质问她：“你为什么想当勘探队员？是不是想把我们国家的宝都探走？！”那时，学校很多政治报告会不让卡玛参加，有时在全校众目睽睽之下退场。校方根据上面“内外有别”的要求，“绝对不允许外国人知道我们国家的情况”。

....

有人曾经问卡玛，如何给自己定位，算洋人还是中国人？“我还真说不出来。蝙蝠，四不像！”卡玛说，在情感上，她非常认同中国人，但是因为不断地被提醒“你不是中国人”，所以“没有办法舒舒服服地认为自己是中国人”—卡玛从小喜爱书法，小学时，老师举着她的大字本说：“咱们中国的毛笔字，啊，写得最好的，还是个美国人！”中学时，她的功课、体育双优，老师当众夸奖她，一转脸却又背着她对同学说，“你们可不要崇洋媚外啊！”

[gato]

As you can hear from the radio interview, she's the mirror image of an American-born Chinese: her English has a perfect Beijing accent

Loved her documentaries (especially "Gate of Heavenly Peace') and saw her at the San Francisco showing of the "Morning Sun." But I didn't realized that she speaks English with a Chinese accent. Funny.

[philg88]

I think it's important to remember how key the Chinese language itself is to Chinese 'culture'. If you don't speak (and read) the language I do not believe you can ever adapt / assimilate to the Chinese way of life.

I know many foreigners here in Hainan who, despite being in China a long time, are still bewildered and frustrated by "the Chinese way of doing things" (aka "culture"). For example, they will often ask "Why does it take so long to explain something to someone?"

Simple, because that is the nature of the language. English is much more precise than Chinese and tends to be less verbose. For people that don't understand the semantics and syntactics of Chinese this leads to a perceived "cultural difference" which is actually a language barrier. Since language is fundamental to any culture it goes without saying that if you don't understand a culture's language you cannot understand the culture built upon it. Subsequent adaptation to that culture will therefore prove impossible.

[muyongshi]

Simple, because that is the nature of the language. English is much more precise than Chinese and tends to be less verbose. For people that don't understand the semantics and syntactics of Chinese this leads to a perceived "cultural difference" which is actually a language barrier.

I don't all disagree with the heart of your post: language is necessary to being able to do anything within a given culture. But I will strongly disagree with you on this simple point...

Many times I find it easier to explain things in Chinese and do not see English as anymore or less precise. Now if you are referring to 坦白 Englsih speaking countries are much more so while Chinese (in certain areas- not all) are much more 委婉.

Now obviously you throw a world view in here and just fundamental differences and explaining something like a post office box is virtually impossible. Two reasons: view of services (world view) and the fact that they just don't have them! If I try to explain how we build houses it doesn't make sense to them and it has nothing to do with the preciseness of the language.

On the other hand if I talk about things that are in China I am (for the most part) very readily understood.

I am curious about your friends on Hainan how good their Chinese really is and what age group they are. If they are older, business-minded, and came over here later in life, even with the language, they will (as a general rule but not definitively) have a harder time even communicating because their worldview has become so ingrained in them and they have only seen one side of things for a long time.

I could go on but I won't bore you

[liuzhou]

If you don't speak (and read) the language I do not believe you can ever adapt / assimilate to the Chinese way of life.

Many Chinese people can't read. Are they unable to adapt to the Chinese way of life?

still bewildered and frustrated by "the Chinese way of doing things"

I speak fluent Chinese but after 11 years still find myself “bewildered and frustrated by the Chinese way of doing things". It is nothing to do with language. It is because sometimes they do things really stupidly, as do we all.

English is much more precise than Chinese and tends to be less verbose.

Nonsense. Chinese is much more succinct. Just pick any text in English and then compare it to the Chinese translation. Hey, guess which is double the size! Yes, the English one. And not just because Chinese uses characters rather than an alphabet.

Since language is fundamental to any culture it goes without saying that if you don't understand a culture's language you cannot understand the culture built upon it.

Oh the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis. A thoroughly discredited linguistic theory. Next you'll be telling me that the Eskimos have 100 words for snow.

[muyongshi]

Oh the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis. A thoroughly discredited linguistic theory. Next you'll be tellin gm ehtat the Eskimos have 100 words for snow.

Actually I believe it's 50....

But on the Sapir-Whorf issue you are right it is fully discredited. I did not even notice the fact that the original poster stated that

Since language is fundamental to any culture

which is of course false...

But what we do know that a part of culture is embodied and carried in language (they are not mutually exclusive) but language is not culture and culture is not language. Period. I speak English but my culture is quite different than an Australian. Yes they have certain linguistic features that carry some of those differences but the language is still English. Hence we see that the are interconnected but they are TWO very separate issues. It is a good idea though if you want to fully understand a culture to also be able to fully use the language. But that is a given.

[Josh2007]

Hi! I recently arrived in Chengdu. I want to add 2 cents.

I already made some Chinese friends, but had a difficult conversation yesterday. They asked me why I don't regard China as democratic. Surely it is just a different form of democracy and a different culture. Why should I think that the US political culture must be adopted worldwide?

You see the problem. I wanted to say, hang on, you guys. You're the ones not getting democracy. I don't want change in China for me - I want it for you. Don't be turkeys voting for Christmas. Why should you support your own lack of political rights?

I am having difficulty in explaining this properly to Chinese friends without seeming to be trying to Americanize the world. I read a post in this thread by a Swede that got me thinking. Here is my approach:

1. Culture in this thread has 2 meanings that are being confused: one is cultural heritage. The other is the whole web of political and social relationships that surround you as you grow up, and partly make you tick the way you do.

2. Clearly, you can form a democratic advanced state in a society of any cultural heritage. See Taiwan and Hong Kong for examples of societies that have the same general cultural heritage as China, but have developed differently in political terms over the past few decades. When I say "cultural heritage" I mean religion, food, drink, clothing, customs, literature etc. The Taiwanese also have Confucius and others in their heritage, but they have still managed to create a different culture today.

3. It is a different thing to talk about the social and political culture in the here and now, though. If you do say that all cultures are equal - and you mean culture in this 2nd sense - then you are saying that cutting people's hands off, torture, gunning down demonstrating monks, etc, is equal to democracy.

4. China has an interesting culture (in the 1st sense: a great heritage), but in the 2nd sense, owing to historical contingencies pointed out by the Swedish contributor, they seem to have gone down the wrong path. There was no inevitability about this, as the example of Taiwan shows. I can't say a society like the one China has become cannot be improved upon: to become like some other countries (Taiwan, Canada, Switzerland) would be an improvement.

5. I think we have to avoid implying that the army gunning down people in a certain square is "just part of their culture and just as good as ours".

6. In fact all cultures face choices and could develop in a number of ways. I think the West is actually sliding back in terms of freedom and democracy, so you can see the thing in dynamic terms overall.

7. If you believe in progress, you have to accept that some countries are less far along the course of progress.

8. What annoys me is not that China is not democratic, but that its people have been sufficiently conditioned to not really care!

[shanghaikai]

Ooooh, political discussions with Chinese people...this can be fun.

First of all, I'd ask if you really enjoy discussing politics with friends/people. If not, just deflect the questions by saying you're not interested. If yes, then you should be sure they're willing to discuss it without taking things personally and ideally with intellectual honesty (meaning they're serious about exchanging ideas, making reasoned arguments, and conceding points when appropriate, etc.) .

When your friends said China is a different form of democracy, you should've immediately asked them to define democracy. Once you guys can agree on a definition for democracy, then you can proceed with the debate. In fact, I reckon you can end the debate and answer his question just by defining democracy.

You see the problem. I wanted to say, hang on, you guys. You're the ones not getting democracy. I don't want change in China for me - I want it for you. Don't be turkeys voting for Christmas. Why should you support your own lack of political rights?

That's still imposing your polticial and social values upon them. It is like wanting democracy for a Middle-East that is fine with Islamic autocracy or oligarchy. It boils down to you wanting the Chinese to want democracy because you think they should want democracy. What if they don't care for having political rights? What if it isn't important enough to them?

4. China has an interesting culture (in the 1st sense: a great heritage), but in the 2nd sense, owing to historical contingencies pointed out by the Swedish contributor, they seem to have gone down the wrong path. There was no inevitability about this, as the example of Taiwan shows. I can't say a society like the one China has become cannot be improved upon: to become like some other countries (Taiwan, Canada, Switzerland) would be an improvement.

This is where you're being judgemental and possibly taking your opinion for objective fact in a subjective world. Why do you think China has gone down the wrong path politically? Why do you think China's society would be "improved" where it more like Taiwan, Canada, or Switzerland?

5. I think we have to avoid implying that the army gunning down people in a certain square is "just part of their culture and just as good as ours".

I don't think anyone is implying that it is just part of their culture or that it is as good as ours (who is part of "ours" anyway?). To understand Tiananmen Square (if that is what you're alluding to), you need to examine the context. I'm not certain many people were "gunned down" either.

7. If you believe in progress, you have to accept that some countries are less far along the course of progress.

Whoa, where did you buy your "Official Progress Ruler" from? Who defines progress? What is progress? Don't forget that Marx and Engels argued that Capitalism progresses to Communism.

Oh, and a bit of advice: let the Chinese criticize their own progress, never be the white guy who comes in and criticizes Chinese progress. Your role is to comment or compliment them on their progress, even if you think it hasn't gotten to the point you like or isn't progressing far enough. Let them be the first to say that they don't think it is enough or progressing fast enough. This is a good general rule of thumb to make sure you don't inadvertently annoy the locals.

=Joshn20078. What annoys me is not that China is not democratic, but that its people have been sufficiently conditioned to not really care!

The truth behind them not caring is a combination of there being more important things to care about and actual repression by those in power. If you think all the Chinese are born with an innate desire for your conception of political rights, you're sadly mistaken. You only need look at voter participation rates in the United States or most "democracies" to realize that most people generally just don't give a rat's @$$. Most people just want to live their lives. Only when government somehow interferes with their lives so much that they feel they cannot live will they start demanding change. Do you know how the Communists came to power? They convinced the rural majority that the Republican and Imperial power structures were unable or unwilling to improve their lot. Communism sounds as incredibly attractive to poor people as it sounds as incredibly unfair to rich people.

Overall, no offense, but you're locked in a certain mindset and framework of values (as many of us are for one thing or another). You really need to get outside of that box before you engage in such sensitive discussions with the Chinese because, more likely than not, they're stuck in their own box too. You two can either butt heads and offend each other, or you can step out and seek to understand their perspective before trying to "enlighten" or "educate" or "empower" them.

[gato]

What annoys me is not that China is not democratic, but that its people have been sufficiently conditioned to not really care!

It depends on who you talk to. There are many Chinese in China (as opposed to abroad) who do care. A taxi-driver in Beijing once went on and on to me about the government when one of the National People's Congress was being held. He even mentioned that certain square without being prompted. Christians in China, in particular, are very keen about democracy and liberty. That's probably one of the reasons that the government's suspicious of Christianity spreading in China.

This is where you're being judgemental and possibly taking your opinion for objective fact in a subjective world.

Nothing wrong with making judgments. You just have to back up your judgment with arguments and facts. Otherwise, who's to say your judgment is any better than any one else's?

[shanghaikai]

Nothing with making judgments. You just have to back up your judgment with arguments and facts. Otherwise, who's to say your judgment is any better than any one else's?

Right, my point was more about him possibly taking his opinion as objective fact. This sort of mindset may blind him to the need for backing up his judgement with arguments and facts.

[wushijiao]

Right, my point was more about him possibly taking his opinion as objective fact

But what happens if it is an objective fact? There are aspects to Chinese political culture that are not really in dispute.

[shanghaikai]

But what happens if it is an objective fact? There are aspects to Chinese political culture that are not really in dispute.

Okay...which of the following are objective facts?

A. That the Chinese went down the "wrong path" with regards to the "whole web of political and social relationships that surround you as you grow up, and partly make you tick the way you do" thing.

B. That China going down said path was not an "inevitability" as demonstrated by the mere existence of Taiwan with a different culture (in the "2nd sense" of course).

C. China's society would be "improved" if it became more like Taiwan, Canada, or Switzerland.

Take your pick. I'm anxious to hear your arguments.