Studying in Taiwan or China (used the search function)

[amandagmu]

Taiwan vs China from a student's perspective, IMO having now spent two summers studying on the mainland and one quarter in Taipei (2 months and 7 more to go....)

Taiwan pros:

- Very easy to get around --the buses even have some English and tell you the stops in English

- Conveniences of life you have in the US, like 7-11s on every corner

- Things in my apartment are not constantly broken, I have a LAN connection that works 24/7 and a landlord who speaks English WELL

- People don't bug you to buy something constantly

- People are helpful when you have a problem and most of them speak English

Cons, three MAJOR ones (to me):

- the accent here, after having studied in Beijing and Dalian, is hard to get used to. Why can't people articulate better? For instance, why do people pronounce qu / chu and ju / zhu and the one I hate the most si / shi exactly the same? Also, some words and phrases are really different -- at least to me -- kong tiao / leng qi , xingqi/ libai being some easy examples....

- (nearly) EVERYONE SPEAKS ENGLISH. Really. When I go into a place to order and I speak Chinese to them they often speak back in English. Even when I ask them to keyi shuo zhongwen ma? Oh yes, they don't understand me all the time either because I lived in N China and picked up that accent.

- biggest complaint: it is REALLLLLLLLLY expensive to live here compared to the mainland (except perhaps HK or Shanghai or parts of Beijing). Aside from the cost of eating (which can be as cheap as $4-5 per day if you eat in the dining hall on campus or the noodle stands in the night markets), everything here is about the same cost as a second tiered American city, e.g. not NYC or SF but perhaps Richmond or Norfolk VA. Groceries aren't *that* much cheaper either, think like Wal-mart or Costco prices (oh yes there are Costco's here---convenient but not that cheap).

China - pros

- Friendly people if you know how to find them. Truth be told people tend not to be as friendly as people in Taiwan but then again just look at history and how the country has been treated by foreign countries through most the 20th c (and 19th...) Not to mention I doubt Taiwan and China tell the same story about the US in their history classes...

- Not many people speak English, even in Beijing. In Taipei the average person on the street speaks it while in Beijing you will have to ask around... people under 20-25 will speak it perhaps... and only in certain areas. Go to Dalian, Harbin, etc you won't find many. And the signs are in characters. Kind of a shocking experience but being in China light I kind of miss being forced to figure stuff out on my own. I learned a lot that way.

- You can travel and visit many places. Why? BECAUSE IT'S CHEAP. You can live a month in Taiwan or 3-4 on the mainland. Seriously.

- i like the food there better. EVERYTHING IN TAIPEI IS FRIED or nearly everything.

- Sorry guys, but I think jiantizi are the future... If you aren't going to read historical docs then learn jianti............

--Did I already mention the mainland is CHEAP?!

China - negatives

- Harder to get around, without question. It's ALWAYS an adventure there. Sometimes Taiwan can be too. Oh yes and just when you think something is easy you have zouhoumen here too. Some things are the same in Chinese culture anywhere.

- less developed in many places, it's really polluted, garbage out on the streets often times (not a prob in Taipei) and just lots of freakin' people everywhere....

- people bug you if you are a foreigner and walking around a non-metropolis (eg not Shanghai or Beijing) and it can be distracting and annoying.

- just don't expect a modern room. But then again at $3-5 a day for a private room with private bathroom, a/c, TV and completely furnished what the hell do you expect?

- internet sucks. On the other hand, made me less likely to waste more than an hour or two a day on it. And look at me now, in Taiwan wasting precious hours of time surfing the net and writing to friends at home in English when I could be out doing something else... ok that's my fault. ;)

To be honest, I don't feel like my Chinese is getting much better here because of the first two cons I listed under Taipei... and it so expensive here I am considering going back to the mainland in the future.

~A

[shanghaikai]

Of course, thanks to Taiwan's "democracy," it's a pain to get to the mainland from Taiwan. Practically everyone on Taiwan wants direct flights, but the "democracy" there will not permit it because the overwhelming desire for more reunification would become impossible to cover up. Perhaps that will all change as soon as Taiwan gets a new president in 2008. And if it doesn't change at that point, Taiwan may become a crater as soon as the Olympics are over.

Ironically, popular sentiment on the internet seems to suggest that the denizens of Taiwan are becoming increasingly pro-independence while those who still entertain the notion of reunification with mainland China are becoming fewer. I personally believe that it is split relatively evenly (with the younger generations being more "I'm Taiwanese than their predecessors), and as such, I deplore using the word "overwhelmingly." It's just that I usually hear the rabid pro-independence types usually claiming such a majority.

Also, I was also under the impression that direct flights between China and Taiwan were forbidden by the mainland side, but I could be entirely wrong on this one. Could someone verify or point me in the right direction for confirmation on this?

[shanghaikai]

- the accent here, after having studied in Beijing and Dalian, is hard to get used to. Why can't people articulate better? For instance, why do people pronounce qu / chu and ju / zhu and the one I hate the most si / shi exactly the same? Also, some words and phrases are really different -- at least to me -- kong tiao / leng qi , xingqi/ libai being some easy examples....

LoL! I actually quite like the Taiwanese/Southern Chinese accent better than the Northern ("proper") accent. I imagine I have no problems with qu/chu, ju/zhu, and si/shi simply because I have more exposure to them and pick up the differences in context quite easily. Disclosure: I chose to come to Shanghai instead of Beijing in part due to the accents! Furthermore, I found it amusing to adjust from leng qi/ruan qi to kong tiao and li bai to xing qi / zhou x!

[adrianlondon]

direct flights between China and Taiwan were forbidden by the mainland side

Actually, it's Taiwan which bans the flights, apart from during CNY when they often allow a few. For petty reasons (this whole thing is rather petty in my opinion) they still have to fly over HK or Macau, but they don't need to land.

[shanghaikai]

adrianlondon: Thanks for the clarification. Cheers.

[fireball9261]

I disagree with amandagmu about Taiwan's food being mostly fried. There are a lot of boiled and steamed foods in Taiwan as well. Many of them are very cheap too.

I have been to many cities in mainland China also (both north and south). If you just want Chinese food, I agree mainland China may have better and cheaper food than Taiwan. However, Taiwan has more variety and authentic international food as well as hybrid food due to the international influences. I had some really excellent (almost 4-5 stars) Western food in Taipei for about $10.00 complete with salad, soup, main meat dish, as well as desert. It was a hole in the wall place (actually, it was in the 3rd floor of a building), and I happened to be in the area and hungry.

In addition, the passably good restaurants in China are no less cheap or even much more expensive than the ones in Taiwan, and they might not serve good food either. I was quite surprised about how much my friend's family spent on her mother's birthday party. I remembered it was probably 2 to 3 times the spending of a family of equivalent financial status in Taiwan. I feel that you might get better tasting food in Taiwan if you are spending >$10 per meal per person. If you want to spend between $5 to $10 and not on fast food, it's a toss up between the two. If you want to spend < $5.00, China is the place to be (i.e. you don't mind eating traditional Chinese food most of the time and in possibly disgusting environment).

To give you an example: I was in a restaurant with my taxi driver during a long trip in Zhejian province. We were in Yiwu where many international people came to buy small merchandise. We were in this small Chinese restaurant right across the small merchandise market/mall and spent about <$2.00 per person. The food was great, but the cleanliness was .... And the whole time I didn't dare to look down to see what I was stepping on. It felt crunchy and sticky no matter where I stepped. I am a Chinese and grew up in the similar environment, so I could sort of stand it, but could you?

If you could cook for yourself and avoid those hair-raising places in China, the food prices in China are great. If you can't cook for yourself and you can't stand dirty environment, you need to stay in better places in big cities and budget for higher food costs.

In addition, I am not sure about the "a lot more books in China instead of Taiwan" theory. I love books and I was there (in Beijing and Shanghai no less), and I had a very, very, very hard time finding the variety of books I usually see in Taipei, especially right next to University of Taiwan. The few scholarly books I saw regarding history were, in my view, abridged version of something I generally saw in Taiwan. It's possible I might be at the wrong bookstores, but they were recommended to me by university students. I also heard a lot of mainland Chinese writers actually got published in Taiwan and by Taiwan publishers.

My suggestion for any new comers to the Chinese environment not as short term tourists but as longer term residents is to try out Taiwan or Hong Kong first. Then, you can go into mainland China without getting too much of a culture shock. I know some Westerners wanted to immerse in the total Chinese environment and all, and you might think you could stand anything. However, I have seen people who had very bad experiences and feel bad about anything related to China afterwards. In this case, I would rather our Western friends have a 細水長流 (small but steady stream) relationship with China.

[adrianlondon]

disagree with amandagmu about Taiwan's food being mostly fried.

Me too. I think Taipei (and Tamsui/Danshui) has some of the best food in the world, especially snacks. Maybe I just haven't travelled enough.

[gato]

I am not sure about the "a lot more books in China instead of Taiwan" theory. I love books and I was there (in Beijing and Shanghai no less), and I had a very, very, very hard time finding the variety of books I usually see in Taipei, especially right next to University of Taiwan. The few scholarly books I saw regarding history were, in my view, abridged version of something I generally saw in Taiwan. It's possible I might be at the wrong bookstores, but they were recommended to me by university students. I also heard a lot of mainland Chinese writers actually got published in Taiwan and by Taiwan publishers.

I think they were referring to books for foreign learners of Chinese, which is true. For those who are already fluent in Chinese, Taiwan (or at least Taipei) is the best place to shop books, period, and you'll find many books there that are not readily available in either the mainland or Hong Kong. There must be a bookstore every three, four block there. The bookstore per capita ratio seems to be exceeded only by the 7-11 per capita ratio..

[Long Zhiren]

Shanghaikai: Ironically, popular sentiment on the internet seems to suggest that the denizens of Taiwan are becoming increasingly pro-independence while those who still entertain the notion of reunification with mainland China are becoming fewer.

If you sense it on the internet, it must be true.

If it actually is true, then the current oppression of business, economic and social cross-straits links stops nothing. The oppression is coming from the current leaders on Taiwan who are acting more communist than the communists at the moment. Though the links are oppressed, they are already quite gigantic and still rapidly increasing in flowrate. Take the walls away, and those links will become like a bilateral tsunami that should melt absolutely everything back together.

The current leaders on Taiwan are crazy. Any US defense treaties were with the Republic and its constitution. If the Republic ceases to exist due to the revolution which pretends to have already overthrown the Republic, those treaties become meaningless. Yes. In one sense, the idea of reunification would be dead because the end of the Republic would finally mean the end of the civil war by definition. It will have been disintegrated, not by the CCP but by the DPP. But since the Republic is still kicking, oppression is again the operating term.

I can't tell if the pro-independence people want to be communist or Japanese. They're already quite good at rewriting history books, rigging elections, renaming monuments and relishing in Japanese war monuments. Besides their effects on the internet, they've managed to convince most Western Media and publishers to accept a new distorted false view of history...as if the KMT were a bunch of bandits that stole Chinese national treasures. The Taiwan tour books, published in the west now reflect this distortion. The KMT might have been bandits that did steal a lot, but really, they were recognized throughout the mainland before they got cornered on Taiwan. If the Pro-Independence DPP'rs really want to divorce themselves from the China identity, they have should send the "treasures" to China because a non-Chinese nation is not a legitimate heir of the treasures.

Yep. We are straying way off from the topic of studying Chinese, but if you're studying Chinese in Taiwan or the mainland, plan to waste of a day in Hong Kong, Korea or somewhere else for the transit.

[md1101]

hi long zhiren,

what oppression are you referring to?

Any US defense treaties were with the Republic and its constitution. If the Republic ceases to exist due to the revolution which pretends to have already overthrown the Republic, those treaties become meaningless.

what do you mean by this? The politcal model defines the country? If Australia drops its monarch ties and becomes a republic all current internation treaties we have dissolve? An honest question here. Just not sure what you mean.

[roddy]

[exercise in futility]Could we keep the politics out of it, except as directly relevant to a China / Taiwan study decision.[/exercise over]

[Lu]

One thing (ok, two) before I'm getting back on topic:

- It's not the TW government that doesn't want a referendum on Taiwan independence. The government would love to hold that referendum. It's China and the US that are against it, and the US has pressured Chen Shuibian into promising not to hold that referendum. So he hasn't. Just to get things clear.

- Long Zhiren, I am not going to discuss this whole issue here, even though I think it could be interesting. But I do want to say that I hope you realise that most of the things you are writing in this thread are opinions, not facts, and many people (here in TW and elsewhere) disagree with you, for example about just who distorted history, who is best at rigging elections, etc etc. You can go and read some of Micheal Turton's things to get an idea of the other side of things.

And now I'm going back to doing my best not to be partisan :-)

if you're studying Chinese in Taiwan or the mainland, plan to waste a day in Hong Kong, Korea or somewhere else for the transit.

From Amsterdam it took only a few hours in transit in HK. It depends on the airline, I think. I doubt getting to Taipei is so much slower than getting to, say, Chongqing or Xiamen.

[md1101]

is the nightlife any good in taiwan? whats the average price of a beer there? averages for places like night clubs, expat bars, normal bars, cheap bars and on the street. in fact, is there much of a street food culture in taiwan? how much is train travel? how much are taxi trips usually? these things would all influence me in deciding whether or not to go to taiwan to study. i.e the things id do when not at uni. and do you start to feel compelled to drop the 'h' in chi, zhi, shi etc?... (or was it add it in si, zi,ci.. i can't remember).

[fireball9261]

is the nightlife any good in taiwan? whats the average price of a beer there? averages for places like night clubs, expat bars, normal bars, cheap bars and on the street. in fact, is there much of a street food culture in taiwan? how much is train travel? how much are taxi trips usually? these things would all influence me in deciding whether or not to go to taiwan to study. i.e the things id do when not at uni. and do you start to feel compelled to drop the 'h' in chi, zhi, shi etc?... (or was it add it in si, zi,ci.. i can't remember).

The nightlife is very good in Taiwan. Most Taiwanese I know don't go to bed early at all. There are a lot of street food culture in Taiwan. I don't know about the current prices, but I think someone who currently live there could provide those info.

Btw, you are not supposed to drop 'h' in chi, zhi, shi (or add it in si, zi, ci) even you are in Taiwan. Mandarin is Mandarin everywhere. However, when you have a few cups of beer, you might just drop the 'h' everywhere.

[Lu]

is the nightlife any good in taiwan?

Personally I really like it, there are bars, clubs, there's really good KTV, cinemas, night markets, and let's not forget 7-11. Taipei is a city that never sleeps.

I haven't lived anywhere else here, so can't comment on other cities.

whats the average price of a beer there? averages for places like night clubs, expat bars, normal bars, cheap bars and on the street.

NT30-40 in the shop, about NT100 and up in bars and the like for standard beer (Taiwan Pijiu, Corona), NT200 and up for more special beer.

in fact, is there much of a street food culture in taiwan?

You bet. There's tons of night markets here. Shilin, Shida, one big one for clothes near Songshan station that I forgot the name of, Gongguan, and plenty more. Plus some 24-hour restaurants.

how much is train travel?

Just bought a ticket for the high speed train to Gaoxiong for about NT1500, but I haven't travelled by train lately so I kind of forgot what prices are generally. Usually several hundred NT for a single trip, as I recall.

how much are taxi trips usually?

Starts at NT70, from there on price obviously depends on where you go. From one end of Taipei (Neihu) to pretty much the other end (Shida) is about NT250-300. Taxis are extremely plentiful, even at night when it rains.

and do you start to feel compelled to drop the 'h' in chi, zhi, shi etc?

I felt so compelled, because I wanted to sound like the people around me. I felt that keeping the retroflexes was like keeping up a British accent in the US. But if you decide not to drop them people will constantly comment on how biaozhun your guoyu is, and how you sound like someone from Beijing. (Not that they generally would know what a real Beijingren sounds like.) It's up to you, and your teacher would recommend you to keep them.

[md1101]

thanks for the replies fireball and lu. from the prices you quoted it sounds quite cheap actually. i feel quite compelled to check it out for myself now.

[Baimudan]

To the OP, do you plan to live on your savings or you want to work part-time? Savings will go a looooong way in China (duh!), and won't in Taiwan. But again, working on the side in both places I guess will make your stay a lot more enjoyable and should allow for a comfortable living.

Regarding the "culture", I have to say that in Taiwan we do have religious holidays, but they usually sum up to going out to eat with the family, going to have a bbq with the family, going to the family's house to eat together, eating some "special food" according to such and such holiday, etc... I've been here for 5 years going on 6 and I can't say I feel there is such a deep "culture" here... Most people here, just like anywhere, just live their daily life, work work work, sleep late when they have some time off, and are very centered around their family. OK, some will stop to the temple sometimes to ask for a blessing (usually more money), but doesn't it make them religious???

Anyhow, it's a though choice: Taiwan or China!

[amandagmu]

Do you plan to live on savings and not have a scholarship? Are you serious about studying most of the time RATHER THAN working? If so, I would recommend the mainland.

I am living in Taiwan and studying this year in a very intensive program while working several part-time tutoring jobs. If I was in an easier program it wouldn't be as bad, but I chose ICLP at TaiDa, a very intense program. Is my Chinese getting better? Yes. Is life convenient? Yes. Is there a nightlife here, better than the one on mainland China? Depends on what you're looking for--in the case of live music and night markets, followed by numerous late night or 24 hour places to hang out, I would say yes. Am I able to fully enjoy all of this without worrying about money? NO. I am broke most of the time here. My studies prevent me from working more than 10-15 hours per week, which is about the bare minimum I can make to live here. I am considering going back to the mainland in the future--perhaps earlier than I need/want to because of the prices here.

If you do plan on coming to Taiwan figure it out a year in advance and apply for the Ministry of Education's language scholarship (google on Taiwan MOE scholarship--it's $25,000NT per month but I have heard after fees and such it's more lke $15000-20000--still not bad since you can rent a place for half that!). I know several people who don't have to worry so much about money because they have that. I would also research housing options and tuition prices ahead of time. Finally, if you can afford to do so, come to Taiwan earlier than planned and work for a few months (maybe over the summer?) before starting language classes in the fall. Not only will you be settled and figure out housing early, but teaching English here can bring in a lot of money very quickly. If you look at www.tealit.com and www.taiwanted.com you'll see what I mean. Some places will even offer housing and possibly some money towards your airfare. I have also found it very easy to find tutoring jobs, English teaching positions, and voice recordings just by word of mouth and bulletin boards on the TaiDa campus.

Hope this helps,

Amanda

[amandagmu]

P.S. average price of beer and club cover charges are much more than on the mainland. The average beer price at a bar in the student areas of town is 80->150 while in the expat areas is more like 150 and up even for crappy cheap beer like miller lite. Mixed drinks also vary greatly, with student areas 200-300 and expat areas 300 and up. Most clubs have a cover charge with the nicer places allowing a free drink in the cover charge and the student clubs asking for a flat price in which you can drink as much as you want (e.g. 500NT or 15 bucks to drink the whole night). If you spend your time in the expat areas you will find yourself broke really quickly......!

[cdn_in_bj]

If you look at www.tealit.com and www.taiwanted.com you'll see what I mean.

Just out of curiousity, I had a look at the rental listings on the second site. Can you tell me what the unit of measurement "ping" is? Is it 平米 (square meters)?

I see a lot of listings for 8-12ping studio apartments going for NT12000-15000. If "ping" is square meters then that's fairly cramped!