寫真 for photograph?

[skylee]

I don't know much about Japanese history, but I think that by the time the country became aware of the fact that they were in the East, and much later wanted to rule over all of East Asia, the name of the capital had been in place for a very, very long time already.

I don't know much about japanese history either. But its capital used to be in Kyoto (京都, literally the capital, period), though the admin centre has been in the present-day Tokyo, then called Edo (江戶) for a pretty long time. The use of the name 東京 started during Meiji Restoration (I guess) and the use of 東 probably was a reference to the original captial which was in the west of Edo.

[HashiriKata]

I don't know much about japanese history either.

I know one or two things about Japanese history but I was so in awe of the force of JiaJiejie that I could only stand aside and watch her with trepidation

[Jialihai Jiejie]

I was so in awe of the force of JiaJiejie that I could only stand aside and watch her with trepidatio

n

Ha ha... Jialihai Jiejie speaks nothing but the truth!

Re: Semantic & phonetic translations

Jialihai Jiejie still cannot understand why China still prefers to call New Zealand '新西兰‘ instead of ‘纽西兰’. Isn't this a bit of both semantics and phonetics?

Why don't they call New York, 新约克?

Or Newcastle as 新卡斯尔？

Jialihai Jiejie

[HashiriKata]

Ha ha... Jialihai Jiejie speaks nothing but the truth!

There's only one truth for everyone but everyone seems to have one

Jialihai Jiejie still cannot understand why China still prefers to call New Zealand '新西兰‘ instead of ‘纽西兰’. Isn't this a bit of both semantics and phonetics?

Yes, it's mix of semantics and phonetics. You know, once a word is established, it tends to have a life of it own...

[Jialihai Jiejie]

There's only one truth for everyone but everyone seems to have one

Ha ha... Which one?

'Trust no one'?

Especially from Jialihai Jiejie! Ha ha...

哎呀，知音难寻啊！

假厉害姐姐

[Lu]

Or Newcastle as 新卡斯尔？

Should be 新堡, of course :-)

Taiwan says 新西兰 to mainland's 纽西兰. Or the other way around, I always forget.

[Jialihai Jiejie]

Should be 新堡, of course :-)

Semantically speaking, yes.

But I was trying to create a hybrid.

I think Taiwan and elsewhere China use 纽西兰; China prefers 新西兰.

Jialihai Jiejie

[trien27]

And some use aeroplane ;)

The word "aero" is from Greek, meaning "air", which later on got translated to "air", due to it's approximate pronunciation to the original Greek word in English. So, aeroplane became "airplane".

[trien27]

I think Taiwan and elsewhere China use 纽西兰; China prefers 新西兰

纽西兰 = takes the pronunciation of "New" and approximated it to "纽" which is "niu" in Chinese: Translation method - Phonetically

新西兰 = takes the meaning of "New" and used the Chinese word with the same meaning 新, meaning "new": Translation method - Semantically.

New Zealand:

新西兰 / 纽西兰 = Simplified Chinese

新西蘭/ 紐西蘭 = Traditional Chinese

BTW, Taiwan and many overseas areas, including Hong Kong, don't use Simplified Chinese characters, but do use Traditional characters, so it's wrong, when according to written form.

[trien27]

Why don't they call New York, 新约克?

Because the first ones to come to the US from China spoke Cantonese, so "New York" would not sound like 新约克 / 新約克 when spoken in Cantonese. 紐約/纽约 sounds closer to New York in Cantonese. In the past, for foreign names only phonetics are used and not semantics, so 新 wasn't used to translate "New". In our day and age, anything is possible.

Just imaging taking the original name of England, and try to translate it semantically word for word into Chinese: "Angleland", angle = jiao [mathematical measurement]. land = di; guo , so England will not be "Yingguo" or "Yinggelan", but rather "Jiaoguo" today, which would sound rather awkward, and descendants would have to look up dictionaries to verify if this is indeed how "England" should be called in Chinese.

Edited October 14, 2008 at 01:31 AM by trien27
Additional information

[trien27]

3. America. Okay, my recommendation here may be a little archaic, but since the America's were once considered as the "New World", would 新界 have worked?

If they had used 新界 for "New World", then it would be in conflict with today's "New Territories" in Hong Kong, which in Chinese do use this name of 新界, which is the Chinese translation of "New Territories" from English.

[trien27]

I would vote the former, since 鐘 semantically refers to a bell, not a time piece.

The character 鐘 doesn't refer to a bell when telling time, but rather to a "type of chiming clock", which sounds somewhat like "a bell being struck" that was first brought to China from Europe. They used the same character as "bell" because of a 'resemblance to the sound between "a struck bell" and "a chiming clock" '.

表 as in "手表", watch is used because "when put on a table or wall would seem like a chart with the numbers placed in a certain way." The character "gold" was later added because it needs a battery which is made of metal.

[Mugi]

Originally posted by HashiriKata

By Vietnamese sources, the name Viet Nam is intended to reflect the origin of the race and not the geography of the country: Vietnamese is said to be a race originally lived in a country further North than what is now Vietnam, but their homeland was gradually took over by the huge & mighty Chinese, so they were continually driven towards the South, crossing to (越) the South (南) to settle in a then sparsely populated land which was not originally their own.

Perhaps you would care to share your sources - I have never come across this particular explanation before. Given historical and linguistic considerations, it sounds very much like a "folk" etymology.

[HashiriKata]

it sounds very much like a "folk" etymology

You're almost spot on there!

That is to say: I’d rather talk to Vietnamese people and listen to what they say about themselves than listen to foreign people who know nothing about Vietnam spouting their knowledge of the country (as we in the West seem to be doing all over the world!). But since you asked, I’ll leave here some secondary sources for you and I hope they can be of some, even if limited, help:

http://viet.vietnamembassy.us/tintuc/story.php?d=20030314121732

http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%E1%BB%8Bch_s%E1%BB%AD_Vi%E1%BB%87t_Nam

http://my.opera.com/hieuha/blog/show.dml/1782785

http://vietsciences.free.fr/lichsu/lichsutennuocviet.htm

http://www.vatgia.com/hoidap/4024/28836/ten-nuoc-viet-nam-la-do-ai-dat.html

[Mugi]

Have you actually read any of the links you supplied? I haven't read them thoroughly yet, but I've skimmed each of them and none seem to support your explanation. Neither do they negate my initial comment (in fact the last link, albeit perhaps the least reliable, actually makes the same statement that I initially did). The links do offer supplementary information though, which looks interesting.

[HashiriKata]

Have you actually read any of the links you supplied?

Of course I looked through them and I thought they may give you some info. As stated in my previous post, my sources are much wider than these simple articles, and take it or leave it is up to you, sorry!

Also bear in mind, I haven't even asked you where you got your info from which gave you the idea that the name VietNam/ 越南 means South (南) of Yue （越=粤）. You'll also need to educate me that 越 is a valid variation of粤, since the Vietnamese making a typo in naming their country is an impossibility. Also consider this fact: no people in their right mind would name their country using the edge of another country as the point of reference. Can you imagine the Chinese would name their own country as "The-bit-that-lies-on-the-North-side-of-Viet Nam" (instead of the current "Centre of the Universe")?

[skylee]

You'll also need to educate me that 越 is a valid variation of粤

I think the following info is relevant -

我國古代南方的少數民族之一，居於浙、閩、粵一帶。亦稱為「百越」、「百粵」。 (source)

越為粵也 (same source)

又國名百越南蠻總名通作粵 (same source)

[leeyah]

Perhaps you would care to share your sources - I have never come across this particular explanation before. Given historical and linguistic considerations, it sounds very much like a "folk" etymology.

By Vietnamese sources, the name Viet Nam is intended to reflect the origin of the race and not the geography of the country: Vietnamese is said to be a race originally lived in a country further North than what is now Vietnam,

I don't know much about Vietnam but I do know the meaning of the two characters which read ‘yue‘ If you need sources other than historical, just look up the characters 越 & 粤 in any good 古代汉语词典 and the Chinese version says : 越 (做动词)是经过，跨过的意思 so the crossing over to the south goes；做名词同于粤 and is 中国的古代南方部族名， 居住在江浙闽越一带，总称 "百粤"，历史记载著名的"百粤兵" BUT being one-sided it doesn't necessarily mean that it's relevant, might just be misused homophony, aimed at sinicisation of the Vietnamese

as for 越南民族历史 here's an interesting reference:根据越南的（大越史记全书）记述，越南民族的历史启始于炎帝神氏三世孙帝明。当时帝明南巡五岭，娶仙女为妻，生子禄续（泾阳王），治南方，泾阳王与洞庭君的女儿共结连理，生下一子崇缆。崇缆又与仙女结合而生百子，建立了百越王国，其领域自中国长江延伸至中南半岛北方 @ http://www.cvmachine.com/space/html/98/n-263398.html and yes, there seem to be speculations on the "Chinese" origin of the tribe, but as HashiriKata said :

but their homeland was gradually took over by the huge & mighty Chinese, so they were continually driven towards the South, crossing to (越) the South (南) to settle in a then sparsely populated land which was not originally their own

this doesn't say they were Chinese in origin, but a genuine tribe which suffered under the dominance of the huge & mighty, of course, like any small tribe surrounded by the mightier dominance-thirsty belligerent neighbours It happens you know

我國古代南方的少數民族之一，居於浙、閩、粵一帶。亦稱為「百越」、「百粵」... 越為粵也

Hence the ambiguity of 越 & 粤 (注意：as interpreted by the Chinese (sh))

Possibly traces of Chinese dominance remain in Vietnamese culture, as in any other East-Asian culture at that But they are a nation in their own right Too bad we don't have genuine Vietnamese in the forum to provide us with more folk etymology, I'd like to hear their side of the story

Edited October 15, 2008 at 03:42 PM by leeyah

[HashiriKata]

Thank you, skylee, for coming up with the goods that I needed. And kudos to leeyah for your political acumen with regard to possible "other motives" behind the assciation between 越 and 粤 in some Chinese quarters.

Still, it looks to me very unlikely that 越 and 粤 are genuine variants of the same word for the following reasons:

- Outside the above-mentioned association, the two words never cross each other's path. 粤, for example, is never used in the sense of "cross/ crossing".

- Viet Nam is never written as "粤南" (This alone should be sufficient to throw out the theory that "Viet Nam" means "South 南 of Yue 粤")

- Cantonese people never claim themselves to be 越, and on the other hand, the Vietnamese never seem to consider themselves 粤.

[Jialihai Jiejie]

- Cantonese people never claim themselves to be 越, and on the other hand, the Vietnamese never seem to consider themselves 粤.

That's because the usage is very arcane.

Jialihai Jiejie