Characters are objectively harder, even for Chinese

[pazu]

The major reason (other than national identity and unity) to oppose Pinyin as the writing system instead of Hanzi, is that many Chinese believes that Pinyin will cause confusion, as we have discussed before. It's difficult to compare Braille with Pinyin because this is a matter of compromise, even if there's confusion in Braille, it's still better than nothing.

Another impression implied by your quoted Dungan article that the author suggested that Pinyin could be used as a writing system because of the already existence of a the "consistent and workable spelling scheme", ie. a perfect latinized representation of Mandarin Chinese (Hanyu Pinyin Fang'an), was however, wrong. Pinyin is a scheme for the standardization of the Putonghua, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the tongues of people. People in China speak differently, though understandable each other (if they both speak Putonghua), but the differences are still obvious. A written Pinyin (in all places) may be able to reinforce the memory of the standard tongue (compare z and j, etc), however this is a loop of egg and chick for now. Southern Vietnamese studied the Northern Vietnamese in school, but they still speak differently, in my impression more than rare that my VN friends in South/Central confused the tones in written Vietnamese. (Ask NNT, though he may disagree.) And most young people living in Guangzhou study Putonghua at school too since they were young, but most still have some problems with the "standardized" version of Putonghua (and that's why they speak with a *cute* Cantonese accent, and that's why the 紫光拼音輸入法 had to implement a 南方模糊拼音 as an alternative.) It may be less confused in Vietnamese even if you really mixed up some sounds because they have more phonemes, but it's not the same for Mandarin.

The ambiguity of Hanzi as a representation of sounds solved this problem seamlessly and so far it works as a very best communication bridge for Chinese people from all parts.

Hanyu Pinyin Fang'an is successful as a teaching tool (so you're not "forced' to take it), but it's far from perfect as a writing solution. The imprementation of Pinyin as the sole writing system will definitely isolate a large part of Chinese to the written language (contrary to what have been suggested). Keep in mind that, a replacement of Hanzi must be done with very convincing reasons, and with a perfect (or near perfect) solution. I can't see any of these two conditions met so far. Illiterate is not a big problem for those who have received education (not necessarily a PhD), as proved in Hong Kong and Taiwan (forgetting how to spell a word isn't illiterate); Sorting of Chinese should be solved by the sorting methods instead of killing characters, standard has yet to evolved (Pinyin is somehow quite a good standard for sorting IMHO) but there're many other effective alternatives (using 倉頡, 五筆 etc).

Another reason to make it impossible to substitute Hanzi with Pinyin, is the already existence of a large Hanzi literate group in China. Note that all other Chinese-influenced societies and countries (漢字文化圈) successfully transformed a logographic written system to an alphabetized one (most notably Vietnam and Korea), had a precondition that they had much lower Hanzi literacy rate than China. Using Pinyin as the written language will not only divide the country but also divide a society and even a family, as no matter what Pinyin they used, those who ____used to Hanzi will definitely keep reading Hanzi___ because it's easier! And this is not only a national pride or what, but this is a fact, I think I can be quite confident that I don't have to give more proof on this point at this moment.

[ala]

Dungan:

Ganzo vo tinli radio li, radio fedi gunfu da. Schyan feli yi zhenzy zavod shon zoli dosho traktor di sychin, fabrika shon zhylyo dosho bupidi sychin. Zykhu, khuatur doli kolkhoz shanli. Ba vomu rayon shon ba sanbay gektar lyonshy zhonshondi sychin ye feli. Shukur fedi, zhe chyuansy pindi kommunisti-partiya linsho zamu dekhadi shen.

赶早我听哩radio(无线电广播）哩。radio说的功夫大。先说哩一阵子zavod(机器厂）上做哩多少 traktor(拖拉机）的事情，fabrika(纺织厂）上制了多少布匹的事情。之后，话头儿到哩 kolkhoz(集体农庄）上哩。把我们 rayon(地区）上把三百 gektar(公顷）粮食种上的事情也说哩。收口儿说的，这全是凭的kommunisti-partiya(共产党）领首咱们得下的胜。

Yes, indeed, Chinese characters enable a certain degree of understanding that transcends sound. The alphabet version above of Dungan would've made little sense to a non-Dungan speaker. BUT as we see, Chinese characters were able to achieve this by marginalizing non-standard forms of Chinese, while you were reading the above Chinese text, you read in Mandarin. Had you took the effort to learn Dungan, the alphabetized script would be far more accessible, as you do not have to establish Dungan pronunciation equivalency for the Chinese characters.

[ala]

Note that all other Chinese-influenced societies and countries (漢字文化圈) successfully transformed a logographic written system to an alphabetized one (most notably Vietnam and Korea), had a precondition that they had much lower Hanzi literacy rate than China.

Hence, dialect alphabetization is the first logical step if any. Especially dialects where the bulk of the population are not aware of the character equivalents. In this case, Cantonese is not the dialect to start.

[pazu]

Let's say, how to romanize Chaozhouhua (Teochew) as a writing system based on phonetics? How to define the sound of "eng"? Which dialect to use as the writing system? Chaozhouhua in Chaoyang is different from Shantou, which one to use? There're 8 tones in Chaozhouhua but only 7 (?) in Raoping (饒平), so how to decide?

Or just compromise and use a much-less-than-perfect pinyin system to write the dialects or languages using the same spelling? Or just be more liberated and use different spellings for Chaozhouhua and thus create seven (major) sets plus more minor sets of innovative spellings in such a small domain of one major dialect in order to fit the needs of all Chaozhouhua-speaking group?

Isolation within the same community (and your neighbours within 20km).

[Green Pea]

Characters won't be replaced by pinyin or any other romanisation system. They can't...it is just too hard. Characters will be replaced by English. Just like in pazu's much beloved example of literacy in Hong Kong. People read the newspaper in characters on their way to the office, but then start typing emails and reports in English. People will still learn to read characters but written communication will be in English. This will happen throughout China.

[39degN]

Characters will be replaced by English. Just like in pazu's much beloved example of literacy in Hong Kong. People read the newspaper in characters on their way to the office, but then start typing emails and reports in English. People will still learn to read characters but written communication will be in English. This will happen throughout China.

i m afraid your prediction is too optimistic, english language is in different situation and position in mailand from it's been in HK, in fact, most of ppl not interested in english at all. or not able to speak it fluently, how can they finish the jobs as your prediction? meanwhile why written in english is necessary, except showing off? english is just one of foreign languages in china, not a secondary language or de facto secondary language.

[39degN]

Swimming is objectively harder, even for fish.

[ala]

Or just be more liberated and use different spellings for Chaozhouhua and thus create seven (major) sets plus more minor sets of innovative spellings in such a small domain of one major dialect in order to fit the needs of all Chaozhouhua-speaking group?

Isolation within the same community (and your neighbours within 20km).

This point is irrelevant to my suggestion. Standard Mandarin Chinese 普通话 is a reality in Mainland China, it serves as the common Chinese language and is not going to go away. With this in mind, why would it be so difficult to allow for romanization systems that reflect local tongues? No, these people can still communicate with their neighbors 20km away in Standard Mandarin Chinese, which was the whole point of 普通话 anyway. Unless your intention for 普通话 is to be the only language of China, then there is no difficulty in developing writings systems for the other Chinese languages. Note: 普通话 is not the official language of China (there is no such law and there's a reason why it's not called 国语), it is a tool for mutual communication amongst the vast linguistic diversity of China.

What I find rather ridiculous is that we spent so much effort to establish a common language in China, only to learn English now as the new common language. Should we abandon Standard Mandarin Chinese now? should we express all new technological ideas in English? should we block Standard Mandarin Chinese from literary development? Of course not.

[shibo77]

I could not resist!!

Swimming is objectively harder, even for fish.

Great point!!

-Shibo

[pazu]

Standard Mandarin Chinese 普通话 is a reality in Mainland China

PTH is a reality as the mutual TONGUE, but it's a reality that people speak them differently. The difference can be easily forgotten in oral form, but can be confusing in written one.

And my previous point of "isolation with 20km (of latinized Teochew)" is referring to the following. Or, is it also not a good point to start with Teochew?

Hence, dialect alphabetization is the first logical step if any. Especially dialects where the bulk of the population are not aware of the character equivalents. In this case, Cantonese is not the dialect to start.

[huimin]

Hi, I just want to share my views. I think both English and Chinese are here to stay. Through the learning of one language, one gets to learn the culture and history behind it. Therefore, it helps in building relationships with people from different languages. English has been the world language for the past years. Now that China is opening up, Chinese will too become one of the most important languages in the world. I would say that learning both English and Chinese are definitely not for showing off. By conversing well in both languages, one can safely say that he or she is able to communicate with the rest of the world. Isn't that good?

[huimin]

I agree with the rest of you that Chinese characters will not be replaced by han yu pin yin. Due to our limitations in the 'yin', we have a lot of 'tong yin ci'. If people start reading in han yu pin yin, there will be misinterpretations. For eg. wo xi huan kan yue ju. 'yue ju' could mean cantonese opera, but it also can mean vietnamese show.

Secondly, look at our poems. If we start using han yu pin, the appearance of our poems will not be neat and nice. Anyway, why is there a need to? Though it is true that the chinese characters are hard to remember and very often we tend to write the words wrongly, the chinese characters bear our culture and civilisation. The beauty of it should be passed down. If we Chinese are not willing to learn it and keep it, no one else will.

[39degN]

I would say that learning both English and Chinese are definitely not for showing off. By conversing well in both languages, one can safely say that he or she is able to communicate with the rest of the world. Isn't that good?

hey, buddy, i think i didnt make myself clear, but i dont mean learning the two languages is for showing off, i just mean emailing and writing in english in everyday life is not necessary.

dont you think (native chinese) emailing to each other in english is showing off, except for practice use?

[39degN]

Secondly, look at our poems. If we start using han yu pin, the appearance of our poems will not be neat and nice. Anyway, why is there a need to? Though it is true that the chinese characters are hard to remember and very often we tend to write the words wrongly, the chinese characters bear our culture and civilisation. The beauty of it should be passed down. If we Chinese are not willing to learn it and keep it, no one else will.

well, generally, han-yu-pin-yinization is a totally stupid idea. this plan is based on ignorance. we should never take it seriously. not all the so-called reforms are wise, creative and evolutionary!

just imagine that one day you woke up in the morning, you realize every one on the street has the same face, do you think that's an ideal world? chinese is unique since it's writing in characters, why should we lose this uniqueness just for somepeople have learning disorder?

by this logic, every kind of learning is difficult, then we should simplify everything, decrease everything's quality, just for the convenience sake?

[pazu]

i just mean emailing and writing in english in everyday life is not necessary.

Sometimes it's necessary for me because I can't find the Chinese patch in an internet cafe...

[39degN]

Sometimes it's necessary for me because I can't find the Chinese patch in an internet cafe...

hey, man! not you, i mean the rest of native chinese in mainland, you guys living in the shadow of different historical background.

[pazu]

NO, I'm now in Vietnam. Almost all computers in Hong Kong has the Chinese font, people just don't know how to input them.

[Ian_Lee]

Why does Chinese seldom use Chinese-Chinese dictionary while English speakers use English-English dictionary more often?

The reason is very simple.

Since daily Chinese usage usually just consists of 3,000-3,500 characters, most words are the compounds of these characters and are self-explanatory since it is a synergy of these two characters.

But in English or any other alphabetic languages, it is way different.

For example, even you know the meaning of word "speed" but there is no way to know what "velocity" means unless you look it up in the dictionary.

But in Chinese language it seldom happens.

[Taibei]

The major reason (other than national identity and unity) to oppose Pinyin as the writing system instead of Hanzi, is that many Chinese believes that Pinyin will cause confusion, as we have discussed before.

Again, let's not set up straw men. This isn't about having Pinyin be the writing system instead of Hanzi.

It's difficult to compare Braille with Pinyin because this is a matter of compromise, even if there's confusion in Braille, it's still better than nothing.

I don't understand. Do you think that Mandarin speakers "compromise" when they have conversations with each other?

Everything in Mandarin that can be spoken and understood, can be written in Pinyin and understood. That's a basic fact of linguistics.

Hanyu Pinyin Fang'an is successful as a teaching tool (so you're not "forced' to take it), but it's far from perfect as a writing solution.

Under digraphia, no one is "forced" to take Pinyin. For that matter, I don't know of any writing system that is "perfect." But one thing's for sure: On the scale of imperfect systems, Chinese characters must rank extraordinarily high, for reasons outlined in Moser's article and in other writings referenced here.

Another reason to make it impossible to substitute Hanzi with Pinyin, is the already existence of a large Hanzi literate group in China.

Another straw man.

So, does this mean you are opposed to reforms for the rest of eternity?

[Taibei]

Chinese characters enable a certain degree of understanding that transcends sound.

I find myself in rare disagreement with ala on this -- though perhaps it is just in his/her choice of wording rather than intended meaning. Chinese characters no more "transcend sound" than alphabetic systems.