Taipei - what's the juice?

[fireball9261]

For the record, the girls in Taiwan are steaming hot. I've never seen so much thigh with such frequency and INTENSITY (RAWR!) in my life.

I heard it would be much better in summer. My husband was also quite shocked (and staring) when he was in Taiwan last time. My cousins slowed down the car so that he could take pictures! We were there around April time frame. Any one who wants to stare at those girls should go during the summer months (and not around the police stations. )

[fireball9261]

I heard that Nanxiang in Shanghai has better quality than Ding Tai Feng in Taipei.

Yes. But the original one has very long lines. There is a branch on a side street around the Bun (? *I forgot how to spell that place) -- the area right next to the beach. That place's environment was a bit poor, but the food are good and cheap and no lines.

The best xiao long bao I had was in the San Gabriel area next to Los Angeles in an Yangzhou restaurant called the Green Village (? I think) 綠楊村. The xiao long bao there was even better than Nanxiang in Shanghai, and it was so delicate and perfect ... Wow! Their other foods are also very good. All their stir fried dishes are excellent because their chef's 刀功　（knife skills) is very good and the seasonings are just right (no heavy and unbalanced seasonings at all). However, the last time I went there (1 year ago), it was closed. I just don't understand how such good restaurant would be out of business? I think it was probably the intense competition around that area caused its closing.

I think you might find some nice xiao long bao places in Taipei other than Ding Tai Feng and without the long line. When the Nationalists came to Taiwan, they took a lot of the top Jiang-Zhe chefs because many of them are Jiang-Zhe Ren.

[fireball9261]

At the same time I shouldn't pick on Taiwanese for not knowing any of this.

If I were a linguist, I would know these, but I am not, so you should not pick on me anyway. Btw, I do know some of those, and the ones I encountered most from reading old English history books are Thomas Wade and Romantized systems. Personally, I feel zhu yin fu hao are the best Chinese pronounciation system because it used Chinese characters that many of them originally sounded like the sounds they represent (through many Chinese linguists efforts) and it has specific sounds that would not be confused with the Western pronounciations.

If I am the one designing pinyin, I would use X in the groups of zhi, chi, shi, ri sounds and not current "x" sound because the English X pronounced more toward "ri" and "si" sounds as in Xerox. On the other hand, the English "sh" sounded more like pinyin's "x" sound. There are also other pinyin rules that changed from one style of pronounciation to another and not logical. If pinyin is designed to help the westerners (and Chinese) to learn Chinese easier, it should have a better system than the current day form. Some of the pronounciation spelling look more like someone who speaks a local dialect designed it. Did they even go through the final product and check to see if there are conflicts in pronounciation? Also, where is the light sound (輕聲) went? That is the 5th tone in Mandarin and I have wanted to ask this question for a while.

[bhchao]

The best xiao long bao I had was in the San Gabriel area next to Los Angeles in an Yangzhou restaurant called the Green Village (? I think) 綠楊村. The xiao long bao there was even better than Nanxiang in Shanghai, and it was so delicate and perfect ... Wow! Their other foods are also very good. All their stir fried dishes are excellent because their chef's 刀功　（knife skills) is very good and the seasonings are just right (no heavy and unbalanced seasonings at all). However, the last time I went there (1 year ago), it was closed. I just don't understand how such good restaurant would be out of business? I think it was probably the intense competition around that area caused its closing

Fireball, I think we are talking about the same restaurant here! Is it the restaurant on the 2nd floor of the 99 Ranch Market Plaza in San Gabriel? Right next to it is a Korean restaurant?

[fireball9261]

Yes! My perfect xiao long bao is gone!!!

[bhchao]

oh my god, You must be kidding I used to go there about once a week. It was always the 燻魚麵 and xiao long bao. The owner was a husband and wife team. The wife had very short hair, slightly dyed red or burgundy. She was usually the first one you saw when you walked in. The husband worked in the kitchen.

can you confirm again? I'm so depressed!

[fireball9261]

I didn't see it at that location, but it doesn't mean they are really gone. They moved from their original location of Rowland Height before, so they could have moved. I think I will get a new Chinese Yellow Page and check again and see if they moved. I will report back to you in the next two days. I also had two (counting two) good Shanghai Chinese restaurants in Irvine closed in the last year also. Both of them served good xiao long bao (not the best, but passable) and good Shanghai fried rice cakes. Now, we have one Taiwanese restaurant replacing one of them, but their xiao long bao was so so. Fortunately, their rice cakes are good. However, for the regular dishes, their flavors are just not as remarkable as the other two restaurants.

I am also hoping the L.A. Ding Tai Feng would improve their xiao long bao after all these years.

[bhchao]

thanks fireball. L.A. Ding Tai Feng's service is not bad. I never had any unpleasant encounters with the service staff there. Mr. Yang, the son, always seems to be smiling and can sometimes be seen wrapping the xiao long bao with the workers. Admittedly, the bao can be better.

[Lu]

If I am the one designing pinyin, I would use X in the groups of zhi, chi, shi, ri sounds and not current "x" sound because the English X pronounced more toward "ri" and "si" sounds as in Xerox. On the other hand, the English "sh" sounded more like pinyin's "x" sound.

The thing is, pinyin is not based on English at all, it only happens to use the same alphabet. The vowels are pretty much the same as the Spanish vowels, and I think that x came from either Portuguese or Russian. Also, the designers of pinyin picked some random unused letters like c or q for sounds they didn't have letters for.

If you use sh to spell pinyin x, you get in trouble when you want to spell pinyin sh. All systems I am familiar with use sh for pinyin sh, and think of something else (x, s, hs) for pinyin x.

There are also other pinyin rules that changed from one style of pronounciation to another and not logical. If pinyin is designed to help the westerners (and Chinese) to learn Chinese easier, it should have a better system than the current day form.

I'm not sure 'making it easier for foreign learners' was the primary objective they had in mind when designing pinyin. I agree that if you want to make it easier for foreigners, other systems can be better. Ideally, every language would design their own system. English could have Yale, Russian could use its Cyrillic letters, Dutch would hopefully come up with something easier to the eye than Duyvendak, etc.

Some of the pronounciation spelling look more like someone who speaks a local dialect designed it.

Pronounciation has changed since the system was designed. Yuan used to actually rhyme with wan, for one thing. That might be a reason.

Did they even go through the final product and check to see if there are conflicts in pronounciation?

Like what? From using pinyin for quite some time, I always had the impression that it is actually very well thought out.

Also, where did the light sound (輕聲) go? That is the 5th tone in Mandarin and I have wanted to ask this question for a while.

It's still there, indicated by no tonemark on top of the word. As in Ni3 hao3 ma?

Edit: All of this is completely off-topic, sorry. Hope the OP has a good time in Taipei anyway.

[fireball9261]

bhchao, I checked the Chinese Yellow Page, and the Green Village Chinese Restaurant is listed, but the number was for a Hunan restaurant. I also checked the 411 and got another number, and the restaurant is another Chinese restaurant. I know the original locations of the restaurant in both San Gabriel and in Rowland Height were probably replaced by the restaurants with those two phone numbers because I was there. The address listed in the Chinese Yellow Page is 140 W. Valley Blvd. # 206, San Gabriel, Ca. However, I think that is the address of the current Hunan Restaurant. Sorry, I don't think our favorite xiao long bao restaurant in L.A. area exists anymore.

[fireball9261]

The thing is, pinyin is not based on English at all, it only happens to use the same alphabet. The vowels are pretty much the same as the Spanish vowels, and I think that x came from either Portuguese or Russian. Also, the designers of pinyin picked some random unused letters like c or q for sounds they didn't have letters for.

If you use sh to spell pinyin x, you get in trouble when you want to spell pinyin sh. All systems I am familiar with use sh for pinyin sh, and think of something else (x, s, hs) for pinyin x.

Lu,

It's fine for someone who know a lot of languages, like Portuguese or Russian. How many Chinese you know who know both? How many westerners you know who know both? I am not talking about linguists or language students. We are not all linguists! In the modern China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore where pinyin would be used, Chinese know of English and English pronunciations and not the others.

I'm not sure 'making it easier for foreign learners' was the primary objective they had in mind when designing pinyin. I agree that if you want to make it easier for foreigners, other systems can be better. Ideally, every language would design their own system. English could have Yale, Russian could use its Cyrillic letters, Dutch would hopefully come up with something easier to the eye than Duyvendak, etc.

If not for the foreigners, then for whom? Chinese had the older style of 反切 (fan3 qie4) and the newer standard of 注音符號 (zhu4 yin fu2 hao4) for Chinese to learn Mandarin. Most of the symbols in 注音符號 are Chinese original radicals and have pronunciations that Chinese could recognize. It also used the principles of 反切 (fan3 qie4) to help spelling out the Mandarin pronunciation. The work was done and perfected in mainland China and before the Chinese Communist took over. Why do Chinese need pinyin to learn Mandarin? Therefore, I concluded it was for the foreigners. There are also other political reasons that I would not get into at this forum. For your information, Chinese had already come up with our own pronunciation system, and that is 注音符號 (zhu4 yin fu2 hao4).

Some of the pronunciation spelling look more like someone who speaks a local dialect designed it.

Pronounciation has changed since the system was designed. Yuan used to actually rhyme with wan, for one thing. That might be a reason.

I am not talking about pronunciation here. I am talking about the design of pinyin, which is a modern design, and Mandarin's standard pronunciations had not changed during the period of designing this pinyin system.

There are also other pinyin rules that changed from one style of pronunciation to another and not logical. If pinyin is designed to help the westerners (and Chinese) to learn Chinese easier, it should have a better system than the current day form.

Did they even go through the final product and check to see if there are conflicts in pronunciation?

Like what? From using pinyin for quite some time, I always had the impression that it is actually very well thought out.

Like the pronunciations related to "un" sounds in various forms. They are not consistent, and that drives me crazy.

Yes, all of this is completely off-topic, sorry. The mod could move this portion to another part of the forum. Thanks!

I hope bianfuxia would let us know how he likes Taipei when he recovers from the trip.

[skylee]

Personally I think Hanyu Pinyin is systematic, easy to learn, easy to type and easy to express. I consider those "inconsistencies" as rules, and do not have problems with them. And I am no foreigner. But I do agree that different people prefer different things. There is no point arguing about personal preference.

[bhchao]

bhchao, I checked the Chinese Yellow Page, and the Green Village Chinese Restaurant is listed, but the number was for a Hunan restaurant. I also checked the 411 and got another number, and the restaurant is another Chinese restaurant. I know the original locations of the restaurant in both San Gabriel and in Rowland Height were probably replaced by the restaurants with those two phone numbers because I was there. The address listed in the Chinese Yellow Page is 140 W. Valley Blvd. # 206, San Gabriel, Ca. However, I think that is the address of the current Hunan Restaurant. Sorry, I don't think our favorite xiao long bao restaurant in L.A. area exists anymore.

That sucks. Thanks for checking fireball. I appreciate it.

Personally I think Hanyu Pinyin is systematic, easy to learn, easy to type and easy to express. I consider those "inconsistencies" as rules, and do not have problems with them. And I am no foreigner. But I do agree that different people prefer different things. There is no point arguing about personal preference.

For the original poster's info, hanyu pinyin is still the standard in Taipei. Most cities in Taiwan are using tongyong pinyin, especially in the south. Taipei and Taizhong are hanyu pinyin cities, but hanyu pinyin in Taizhong is not as uniformly consistent as in Taipei. Taipei is the bastion of hanyu pinyin.

Mayor Hau recently upheld his predecessor's stance that Taipei will not switch to tongyong pinyin.

[fireball9261]

But I do agree that different people prefer different things. There is no point arguing about personal preference.

skylee, I have no problem with anyone's preferences for their pinyin choices. However, as my internet name suggested, I do have a bad temper and would fight back when get picked on.

[bhchao]

I do have a bad temper and would fight back when get picked on.

Never fight with a Shanghai woman. You'll never come out of it alive My grandfather (mom's dad) was Jiangsu ren, and he had a bad temper (quick-tempered and very stubborn)

[adrianlondon]

Taipei and Taizhong are hanyu pinyin cities

Isn't it Taibei then?

[fireball9261]

Sorry, bhchao, I am a Zhejiang woman, and Zhejiang women are even worse tempered than the Shanghai women. You wouldn't want to get a Hangzhou or Wenzhou girl mad at you -- Just meet with my cousins from my mom's side (Hangzhou) and my dad's side (Wenzhou). My husband finally thought I was sweet tempered comparing to them after just being with them for one day and seeing how they are with their husbands and others.

Actually, I like the idea of calling Taipei, Taibei, as it should be. I am sick of pronuncing Chinese city names with Romanized pronunciations.

[atitarev]

Taipei (Táiběi) is an exception - because it's known to the English-speaking (and some other language-speakers) as such. I agree that Han'yu Pinyin is promoted Taipei. BTW, Taipei is called Taibei (Тайбэй) in Russian.

Like any alphabet - Han'yu Pinyin has to be learned and understood. The special readings for x, q, c and r was a better solution than creating diacritics or more letter combinations.

"X" reading doesn't come from Russian, it does indeed come from Portuguese (also Maltese and Basque). "C" reading is similar to most Slavic languages, which use Roman letters. Q usage is similar to Albanian and R is the obvious choice.

I still find it very strange that in English X should be pronounced as Z in many cases.

Many languages use Roman letters in their own way, it doesn't have to follow English or any other language to a letter.

[bhchao]

Isn't it Taibei then?

Hard to stop inertia when the spelling "Taipei" has been stuck in my brain for ages. It's like trying to substitute "GMD" for "KMT".

I do pronounce Taipei, "Taibei" in Mandarin of course.

Zhejiang women are even worse tempered than the Shanghai women. You wouldn't want to get a Hangzhou or Wenzhou girl mad at you -- Just meet with my cousins from my mom's side (Hangzhou) and my dad's side (Wenzhou). My husband finally thought I was sweet tempered comparing to them after just being with them for one day and seeing how they are with their husbands and others.

My experience interfacing with Sichuan, Shandong, and Shanghai woman has been pretty challenging. Please don't tell me there's worse.

[fireball9261]

Hangzhou women made up for their bad tempers with their beauty and their skills with art and creativity. They are the prettiest woman I know. (I do not look like Hangzhou woman. ) Their creativity are good when they are used in helping their families to prosper, but bad when they come up with very creative words to yell at you (it could last for hours without repeating phrases and words, and no existing curse words either -- They made up their own words and guarrantee fresh.)

Wenzhou women made up for their bad tempers with their skills in running business.

Personally, I would go for Suzhou girls. They might not as pretty or as smart in business as Hangzhou or Wenzhou women, but they sure seem much sweeter tempered as well as softer voiced. You just need to allow for very sweet home cooked meals.