Hokkien/Minnan pinyin?

[PandaRoo]

Hey guys

Just a simple question - is there a Hokkien or Minnan pinyin?

I would like to learn the lyrics of some WuBai songs, but unfortunately, I can't find a service online that can transliterate the lyrics for me

Does anyone know of any?

Thanks

[Lu]

There is a website that explains it all quite well, but unfortunately I can't find it now :-( If I run into it again I'll post it.

Edit: I found it: Tailingua.

There are many romanization systems for Taiwanese, and no agreed upon standard, but as far as I know there are two that are most widely used: Maryknoll and the one propagated by the government.

The Maryknoll/missionary system can be seen in the Taiwanese wikipedia.

The government system can be seen %B2%C41%A7%E5%A1"]here, in the list of the first batch of proposed Taiwanese characters. It's very similar to the missionary system, and if you know one you can at least read the other with little trouble.

In my (limited) experience, there are very few Taiwanese who have any knowledge of either system.

I don't know of any online service to turn characters into any kind of Taiwanese romanization. I do know that Wu Bai himself apparently also has trouble writing his lyrics, because there are no standard characters for many Taiwanese words.

Good luck!

[littleknight23]

I have no idea of Hokkien/Minnan pinyin. But if the amount of the lyrics is not too much, I can do the transliteration for you—no charges, haha. As it would be easy for me. I am a native Chinese speaker.

You can email at: littleknight23@163.com

MSN: littleknight23@hotmail.com

[wushijiao]

I found an interesting article on the subject, confirming what Lu said, that the majority don't know or don't use the romanization systems.

Also, it seems that they can't pick a system:

In 2004, Li and Tan helped found the Global Coalition for Taiwanese Languages to promote the Taiwanese-language education, among other things. The organization is particularly concerned about the inconsistency of romanization among different textbooks. For the Holo language, there are three major systems that are competing with each other: the POJ; the Taiwanese Language Phonetic Alphabet, a revised form of the POJ which uses numerals next to each word to indicate tonal values rather than diacritics; while Tongyong Pinyin, or general transliteration, is the government's official Mandarin romanization system, which is being extended to all Taiwanese languages.

http://taiwanreview.nat.gov.tw/fp.asp?xItem=1038&CtNode=128

[Lu]

Also, it seems that they can't pick a system:

Well of course, after all this is Taiwan we're talking about.

POJ is the missionary system, the Taiwanese Language Phonetic Alphabet is the government's one.

And with the correct names Wushijiao gave I found this article that is not the one I was looking for but also has some good information; and this blog that confirms Tongyong is not used for Taiwanese(/Hokkien/Hoklo/Minnan).

[chaxiu]

Hey PandaRoo,

There are a few romanization systems for Taiwanese, but they are just not commonly used. In fact out side of people involved in some form of Taiwanese education I have not met a single person who can use them.

I tried to add POJ (church romanization) to the following Wubai song ‘汝是我的心肝’ I don’t know how correct it is:oops:.(especially the tones) .......If anyone out there can correct it please do.

Hope it is useful.

Chaxiu

作詞：伍佰/王武雄　 作曲：伍佰

汝是我的心肝

Li si goa e sim-koaⁿ

最近的夜暝 我定定會爬起床 目睭金金看你看到天光

Chòe-kīn e iā mî goa tiāⁿ-tiāⁿ e pê khí-chhn̂g ba̍k-chiu kim-kim-khòaⁿ li khòaⁿ kàu thiⁿ-kng.

你睏的真甜 笑容是彼呢單純 溫暖的愛一時煞充滿心門

Li khùn e chin tiⁿ chhiò-iông si hit le3 tan-sun un-lóan e ai chi̍t-sî soah chhiong-bóan sim mn̂g

真希望能夠 永遠甲你作伴 輕輕鬆鬆唱咱快樂的歌

Chin hi-bāng lêng (e?) kàu éng-óan kah li chòe-phōaⁿ khin-khin-sang-sang chhiàng lán khòai-lo̍k e koa.

人生的路上 總有坎坷的路愛行 不免煩惱 我是你的靠山

Jîn-seng e lō?-siāng chóng u khám-khiat e lō. ai kiâⁿ put-bián hôan-ló goa si li e khò-soaⁿ.

不管風雨有多大 你是我的心肝 讓我陪伴你 你永遠不會孤單

Put-kóan hong-hō. to toa li si goa e sim-koaⁿ niū goa pôe phōaⁿ li li éng-óan bo(boe) e ko?-toaⁿ.

就算講海水嘛會乾 你也是我的心肝

Chiū-sǹg kóng hái-chúi mā e koaⁿ li ia si goa e sim-koaⁿ.

無人可比 一生一世 最愛你的是我

Bô-jîn khó-píit-seng it-sè chòe-ai li e si goa.

嗚~嗚~~~~~~

u~~~u~~~~

真希望能夠 永遠甲你作伴 輕輕鬆鬆唱咱快樂的歌

Chin hi-bāng lêng kàu éng-óan kah li chòe-phōaⁿ khin-khin-sang-sang chhiàng lán khòai-lo̍k e koa.

人生的路上 總有坎坷的路愛行 不免煩惱 我是你的靠山

Jîn-seng e lō. -siāng chóng u khám-khiat e lō. ai kiâⁿ put-bián hôan-ló goa si li e khò-soaⁿ.

不管風雨有多大 你是我的心肝 有我陪伴你 你永遠不會孤單

Put-kóan hong-hō. to toa li si goa e sim-koaⁿ niū goa pôe phōaⁿ li li éng-óan bo e ko?-toaⁿ.

就算講海水嘛會乾 你也是我的心肝

Chiū-sǹg kóng hái-chúi mā e koaⁿ li ia si goa e sim-koaⁿ.

無人可比 一生一世 最愛你的是我

Bô-jîn khó-píit-seng it-sè chòe-ai li e si goa.

不管風雨有多大 你是我的心肝 有我陪伴你 你永遠不會孤單

Put-kóan hong-hō. to toa li si goa e sim-koaⁿ niū goa pôe phōaⁿ li li éng-óan bo e ko?-toaⁿ.

就算講海水嘛會乾 你也是我的心肝

Chiū-sǹg kóng hái-chúi mā e koaⁿ li ia si goa e sim-koaⁿ.

無人可比 一生一世 最愛你的是我

Bô-jîn khó-píit-seng it-sè chòe-ai li e si goa.

無人可比 一生一世 最愛你的是我

Bô-jîn khó-píit-seng it-sè chòe-ai li e si goa.

無人可比 一生一世 最愛你的是我

Bô-jîn khó-píit-seng it-sè chòe-ai li e si goa.

[Lu]

You seem to skip most of the tones... But if it's for a song it doesn't really matter, they mostly disappear when singing anyway.

的 is e5

會 is e7

Did you use an online tool, or was that all by hand (so to speak)? I've been learning Taiwanese for about half a year now, thought about trying to romanize a song, but thought it would just be too hard.

[chaxiu]

Hey,

I looked on the web a couple of weeks ago for the words to Wubai’s 台灣製造. At the time I couldn’t find anything, so I just assumed that the words for the Taiwanese songs didn’t exist. But on the weekend I found them here www.kkbox.com.tw I just copied the Taiwanese characters into and online dictionary.

Have you found any useful resources for learning Taiwanese? Apart from a textbook and a dictionary the only other useful thing I have found is a song book for children. (But again, it is in Taiwanese characters which just makes life difficult or at least confuses my Mandarin.)

Sorry tone sandhi is just too difficult at the moment…maybe in a few years.

Chaxiu

[Lu]

I found the tone sandhi a lot easier than I thought they would be, still get them wrong often enough, but not too serious (I think). I guess the method my teacher uses, which is repeat, repeat, repeat, helps.

I haven't really looked for resources, mostly just been using my textbook (studying at Maryknoll, are we tongxue by any chance?).

There is the Minnan wikipedia, which is not that useful for learning but it's cool it exists.

Then there is an online dictionary, this one, but that was from a recommendation on this forum, you might already know about that one.

There is a website, Tailingua, that has a rather good overview of some Taiyu-related things.

My teacher knows of a Taiwanese literary magazine, all in characters but it explains the less regular ones (since many Taiwanese won't know them either), I can ask her for the name.

A friend of mine has quite a collection of textbooks for Taiwanese, of varying quality, so there are some things out there.

The Ministry of Education is researching and proposing standardization for characters for Taiwanese. They have issued two batches of proposed standards for Taiwanese characters so far, here's %B2%C41%A7%E5%A1"]the first batch. I have the second batch but not online, can try to send you the file by PM if you're interested. Those are mostly characters for very basic words, like gin2-a2 and tai7-chi3 and such.

I hope this helps, and nice to find a fellow student!

[chaxiu]

Hey Lu,

It's a small world. I study at their school in Taichung. I started about 3 months ago, but I only do two hours of classes a week though. I'd like to do more but just too busy.

If I come across anything interesting I'll let you know.

Chaxiu

[Lu]

Encouraged by chaxiu's efforts (if chaxiu can do it, so can I :-) ) I managed to transliterare 垃圾車 by 五月天.

Conclusions:

1. The dictionary is quite helpful, but you still need a native speaker to help you out here and there.

2. There are several reasons there is no automated system (that I know of). First, there are no standard characters for Taiwanese. There are some generally agreed on characters, like 攏 for long2, but also a lot that are not agreed on, and some guoyu thrown in when it comes in handy or when there is no generally agreed on Taiwanese character, like 愛 or 要 for beh4. Second, virtually every character in Taiwanese is a duoyinzi.

So, if anyone is interested, here's the text. There are a few places I wasn't sure of, and a few tones missing, but most of it is correct.

雖然你脾氣壞　對待朋友又差

Sui1-jian5 li2 phi5-khi3 bai2　tui3-thai7 peng5-iu2 koh4 chha1

凸槌又更愛牽拖

Thut2-chhe5 iu7 ko ai3 khan1-thoa1

佳在你遇到我　不愛計較的我

Ka1-chai3 li2 tu3-tioh8 goa2　bo5 ai3 ke3-kau3 e5 goa2

算你壞人有好命

sng3 li2 phainn2-lang3 u7 ho2-mia7

我走路你坐車　你吃飯我洗碗

Goa2 kiann5 loo7 li2 che7 chhia1 Li2 chiah8 png7 goa2 se2 oann2

你被欺負我拼命

Li2 hoo7 khi1-hu7 goa2 pia3-mia7

若為了爽到你　可以艱苦到我

Na7 ui7-tio song2-tioh8 li2　E7-sai2 kan1-kho2 tioh8 goa2

因為　咱緣份不可散

In1-ui7　lan2 ian5-hun7 m7 than-soann3

＊有你　我才未孤單

＊U7 li2　goa2 chiah4 boe7 koo1-toann1

　有你的陪伴　我才有靠山

　U7 li2 e5 poe5-phoann7　goa2 chiah4 u7 kho3-soann1

　你若不爽　我是你的垃圾車

　Li2 na7 be7 song2　goa2 si7 li2 e5 pun-so-chhia1

　每天　聽你的心聲

　Tak8-kang1　thiann1 li2 e5 sim1-siann1

　有你　我才未孤單

　U7 li2　goa2 chiah4 boe7 koo1-toann1

　有你的陪伴　我才有靠山

　U7 li2 e5 poe5-phoann7　goa2 chiah4 u7 kho3-soann1

　你若歡喜　我是你的垃圾車

　Li2 na7 hoann1-hi2　goa2 si7 li2 e5 pun-so-chhia1

　每天　為你唱歌 ＊

　Tak8-kang1　ui7 li2 chhiunn3-koa1 ＊

感情若想要滿　杯底就要呼乾

Kam2-cheng5 na7 siunn7 beh4 moa2　poe1-te2 tio ai3 hoo1-ta1

這杯就愛飲呼乾

Chit4 poe1 tio ai3 lim1 hoo1-ta1

這杯你飲呼乾　這杯我飲呼乾

Chit4 poe1 li2 lim1 hoo1-ta1　Chit4 poe1 goa2 lim1 hoo1-ta1

咱　這箱攏飲呼乾　攏飲呼乾

Lan2　Chit4 siunn1 long2 lim1 hoo1-ta1　long2 lim1 hoo1-ta1

---------------------------other version of the last part:-----------------------------

愛情有影傷肝　想到我就會驚

Ai3-cheng5 u7-iann2 siong1 koann1　siunn7-tioh8 goa2 tio e7 kiann1

親像熱天洗溫泉

chhin1-chhiunn7 joah8-thinn1 se2 un1-choann5

頭暈目暗的我　愛到整身軀汗

thau5-hin5-bak8-am3 e5 goa2　ai3 kah kui sin1-khu1 koann7

我　歡喜又擱甘願　給你快活

Goa2　hoann1-hi2 iu7-koh4 kam1-goan7　hoo7 li2 khuinn3-oah8

[wushijiao]

Slightly off topic, but to Lu and chaxiu, have you found that your experience in Taiwan is different now that you are starting to learn Hokkien/Minnan? Are people eager to speak it to you?

[Lu]

I don't feel I know enough to make conversation in Taiwanese, so I rarely do (yet!). Exchanged a few sentences with a few taxi drivers, and they replied in Taiwanese.

And generally even if I only say chai-kian (zaijian) people almost fall over in surprise. Which is fun :-)

I think the trick would be to talk to people who feel more at home in Taiwanese than in Mandarin (basically, most people over 50, and few under 30), they would be happy to be able to speak their true mother tongue, I think.

Edit: As to my experience here in general, I think I 'get' more, understand more. For all the lamenting that Taiwanese is dying off, it's actually used more widely than one realizes, and now I know a little bit of Taiwanese I'm missing a little bit less of what is happening around me.

[chaxiu]

Lu that's really cool. Nice song:D

When the romanization is added it makes it much easier to learn/use the song.

Before I started to learn Taiwanese I would hear people speaking and I'd think that doesn't sound like Chinese. But now, I don't know what they are saying, but I can at least I understand the phonics. If that makes any sense...

I work at a school here and I often hear the local teachers speaking to the parent using Taiwanese. I hear it in the markets, it's on TV, the fellow who came to fix my hot water spoken it to my local friend who came to help me. As far as i understand younger people generally understand it better than the can speak it.

I feel if I make the effort to speak (a little) Taiwanese people are more than happy to reply.

For anyone interested you can find the above songs on YouTube.

Chaxiu

[Lu]

Glad you like it!

Before I started to learn Taiwanese I would hear people speaking and I'd think that doesn't sound like Chinese. But now, I don't know what they saying, but I can at least I understand the phonics. If that makes any sense...

Makes a lot of sense, I feel the same way. It doesn't sound like botched Mandarin anymore, it turns out it has a standard of its own, and I suddenly heard that the people who seemed to speak with a thick accent actually speak extremely biaozhun and by the book in Taiwanese

Found some more useful things:

Blogger A-gu writes on Taiwanese sometimes, including

- A very useful post on which Taiwanese tones correspond to which Mandarin tones.

- Another useful post on which sounds (initials/finals) in Taiwanese correspond to which Mandarin sounds.

I found the one on tones especially helpful, for remembering both Taiwanese and Mandarin tones.

There is some kind of web magazine (?) in Taiwanese, written in a mix of characters and romanization. I haven't really looked at it yet, but it might be interesting. And anyway there's not much written Taiwanese to go around.

[Tailingua]

Hi all, that list of characters which Lu referred to from the Ministry of Education in Taiwan can now be downloaded in PDF format from this post from Tailingua News.

[82riceballs]

Interesting thread

I've always found pinyin for Hokkien very hard to read

At the Taiwanese church near where I live, the word 我 is transliterated "goa", which is correct, but very confusing. It kind of reminds me of tongyong pinyin.

I think the reason why most taiwanese people are not very fluent at reading this pinyin system is because they like just prnouncing the hokkien pronunciation of the chinese character.

[chaxiu]

Hey Tailingua,

Thanks for the link. Your website is really well put together. It's got a lot of great information about learning Taiwanese.

thanks

Chaxiu

Tai-oan si po-to

[chaxiu]

Hey 82riceballs,

I had the same impression of the romanisation when I first encountered it. I think it is like any system and once use it enough you get use to the sounds.

As far as fluency in the various romanisation systems...there is none. It's probably not that people don't want to use it. More that it was never taught to them.

Under Martial Law the language was not viewed too highly. Students weren't allow to speak it a school. It wasn't used in public. Only at home. I believe that similar things happened with Hakka and the other aboriginal languages.

I think that that the main problem is that if a child's mother tongue is not mandarin, then they must have great difficult learning their own language. Not to mention learning Mandarin once they go to school.

Chaxiu

[Lu]

I don't believe POJ is more difficult than Hanyu pinyin, and I agree with chaxiu that the reason people usually can't read it is because they have never learned it, not because of some inherent difficulcy of the script itself. (The same goes for Tongyong, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, the reason few can use it is that few ever learn it.)

I think the reason why most Taiwanese people are not very fluent at reading this pinyin system is because they like just pronouncing the Hokkien pronunciation of the Chinese character.

Thing is, sounding out written Mandarin in Taiwanese pronounciation does not result in correct Taiwanese (would be nice if it were that easy). To solve this, you could either read the sentence and then translate it to Taiwanese before reading it out loud. Another way is to write directly in Taiwanese using characters, but then you again run into a similar problem: people haven't learned some of those characters in school, and thus will have trouble reading them.

Incidentally, does anyone here know a good dictionary for Taiwanese? Preferably with words, not just characters; searching through both radicals and any kind of romanisation; and not too big or heavy, I'm just a beginner.

I've searched literally everywhere by now, from 南天 to 誠品 to Page One, but no luck, only mediocre or ancient or otherwise unsuitable dictionaries.