Chinese Religion - Revivification

[leather_strap]

I was only looking for some other foreigners living in China who are also Buddhist, not planning to start any groups, but haven't found any so far, only people with a passing interest. Now that my Chinese is improving I'm able to set out on my own and go to temples. I visited the Fourth Patriarch's temple a while ago and plan on going back. They have a retreat temple way out on a mountain, and said I could go if I wanted. Hopefully during the Chinese New Year. There are a few temples that still do the very strict, twice-yearly Chan retreats. I was both surprised and pleased to find that out. The practice is investigating the 话头. There is still real Chan style meditation that goes on in China.

One thing I do plan on doing is to translate Chinese Buddhist material into English, not sutras but teachings and historical information. I'd like to help Chinese Buddhism in it's revival. I've been trying to contact the official, government Buddhist agency about translating, but their mail box seems to have some problem.

Last year I spent a year in Qingdao studying language but was rather dismayed by how decrepit the non-Christian religious traditions in the mainland are. I'm also very interested in the cause of helping native traditions in the mainland revivify but am not sure where to start. Could you give me a few names of the temples (Daoism, Buddhism, Manichianism, Confucianism, etc.) that you have found to be more than tourist traps?

In the Spring I finish up my B.A. and will spend next year studying language and religion in Taiwan. I'm working on a grant proposal right now to assit my expenses to spend extended periods of time at both Fa3gu1shan1 (Dharma Drum Mountain) in the north and Fo2guang1shan1 (Buddha's Light Mountain) in the south. This is my first step to being able to attain the language necessary to do ethnobiographical studies in the mainland.

[leather_strap]

Last year I spent a year in Qingdao studying language but was rather dismayed by how decrepit the non-Christian religious traditions in the mainland are. It makes me quite sad to think of a whole generation (if not two, three, or more) who are completely uninterested in these aspect of their traditional culture. This is one reason why I'm very interested in the cause of helping native traditions in the mainland revivify but am not sure where to start. While I was their I visited Buddhist and Daoist temples that didn't seem much more then pretty storehouses of religious art that sold tickets and accepted donations as well. I'm glad that Master Taixu died before the Communist Regime took power because if he were distraught about the backwards nature of Chinese Buddhism during the Republican period, a mere glance at today's picture would kill him again.

Here's what I've got so far on my plan. In the Spring I finish up my B.A. and will spend next year studying language and religion in Taiwan. I'm working on a grant proposal right now to assit my expenses to spend extended periods of time at both Fa3gu1shan1 (Dharma Drum Mountain) in the north and Fo2guang1shan1 (Buddha's Light Mountain) in the south. This is my first step to being able to attain the language necessary for ethnobiographical studies in the mainland.

[liuzhou]

Most Chinese people I know, including college aged students, are very much aware of and knowledgeable about their traditional religions. Much more so than westerners are about theirs.

Their choice not to follow these religions/superstitions is not based on ignorance.

I'm sure China is looking forward to you arriving to explain their culture to them.

[lilongyue]

Religion in China truly is in a sorry state, but Buddhism is slowly recovering. I myself am trying to learn more about Buddhism in China. When I first came here I didn't speak any Chinese, so I didn't know where to start. I wasn't interested in any of the tourist temples. Ironically, I had to ask a friend of mine in America where to look before I finally made contact with a good temple. The temple I visited and plan to go back to is the Fourth Patriarch Daoxin's temple. I forgot the temples name, and don't know how much online information there is directly relating to temples here in China (like contact info).

Recently I've been trying to get in touch with the Buddhist Association, but haven't found a single working email address. Haven't tried calling because all the numbers are Beijing numbers. I don't want to blow all the money in my phone. I think Taiwan is a good place to start. Taiwanese Buddhists are contributing a lot to the rebuilding of Buddhism in China. I'm sure that those large Buddhist organizations you mentioned will have extensive contacts here in China.

If you interested in talking more about Buddhism in China you can PM me your email address.

[roddy]

Moved and merged some almost identical posts.

[lilongyue]

Oh boy, my reply being put after this one:

Most Chinese people I know, including college aged students, are very much aware of and knowledgeable about their traditional religions. Much more so than westerners are about theirs.

Their choice not to follow these religions/superstitions is not based on ignorance.

I'm sure China is looking forward to you arriving to explain their culture to them.

makes me think an argument is looming on the horizon. For the record, I have no interest in debating how much Chinese know about their own religions, including Buddhism.

[gato]

For the record, I have no interest in debating how much Chinese know about their own religions, including Buddhism.

Yes, that's a topic for the Chinese themselves to debate. It would also be foolhardy for a foreigner to try to revivify (revive?) traditional religions in China. That's also something that the Chinese can only decide for themselves.

Think if South Korean Christian missionaries were to try to revive Christianity in Europe.

[wushijiao]

Yes, that's a topic for the Chinese themselves to debate. It would also be foolhardy for a foreigner to try to revivify (revive?) traditional religions in China. That's also something that the Chinese can only decide for themselves

Just to play the devil's advocate, why not help them revive it? To some degree, these religions were presented as and were seen as universal. Chinese Buddhism had dramatic amounts of interchange between India and Central Asian kingdoms and peoples. Confucianism was a governing philosophy (religion?) held by many non-Chinese peoples and countries. Clearly, the CCP chopped the head off of religion (like at 龙门石窟), largely killing it un-naturally. Now they are somewhat more tolerant towards religion.

If a foreigner really believes in some form of religion like, say, Buddhism, what would be wrong with trying to revivie it?

Of course, I suppose it largely depends on the methods used. A white person knocking on doors in Beijing trying to convert Chinese people to Chinese Buddhism would be as insulting as it would be hilarious. But translating documents, finanically supporting temples, doing academic studies, or things like that could be positive acts, in my view.

[Xiao Kui]

Think if South Korean Christian missionaries were to try to revive Christianity in Europe.

What makes you think this isn't happening? I'm pretty sure it is.

As far as Buddhism goes, it seems westerners are a lot more interested in it than the Chinese.

[gato]

Think if South Korean Christian missionaries were to try to revive Christianity in Europe.

What makes you think this isn't happening? I'm pretty sure it is.

My point is that it would be ineffective and silly. How many people have the South Koreans converted in Europe?

[dalaowai]

I worked with many South Koreans in Shanghai and they often tried to convert me to Christianity. I was invited to "Jesus-parties" and often asked to go to church with them. They even have audio english translation for non-Korean speakers who want to pray at their church!

[lilongyue]

But translating documents, finanically supporting temples, doing academic studies, or things like that could be positive acts, in my view.

That's the role that foreigners generally play in aiding the recovery of Buddhism. For example, in Mongolia (outer, not inner) a large international Tibetan Buddhist organization is working very hard to help Buddhism flourish again. A lot of the money going into the projects comes from foreign countries. The Christians are already deeply entrenched in Outer Mongolia, they didn't waste any time in jumping and going to work. As was said in another thread, Christian missionaries do a lot of good work, like setting up hospitals, schools, and soup kitchens. Most Christian organizations, like the Catholic Church, has bottomless coffers to pull resources from for these kinds of activities, making it hard for Buddhists to compete.

One role that foreigners play (that I also mentioned in another thread) is that people from "modern, developed" countries that have interest in something like Buddhism can help the local people themselves regain interest, or have more confidence and pride in their beliefs. The Christian missionaries say all kinds of nasty things about Buddhism, trying to make the people think it's a backward religion, and a contributing cause to the country's under-development. They say things like "Look, all the Christian countries are so rich and developed, but Buddhist countries aren't!" So if the local people never see or hear about the growing interest in Buddhism in the West, or the number of Western Buddhists, or how Buddhist philosophy is studied and respected in universities in these "modern and developed" countries, they start to believe what the missionaries say. They don't know anything about Japan, or South Korea, or Thailand, Buddhist countries that are doing very well. The growth and support of Tibetan Buddhism outside of China all comes from foreigners, too, including Taiwanese, Malaysian and Singapore Buddhists, as well as Westerners.

Generally speaking, you'll never find Buddhists going from door-to-door with copies of sutras in their hands. That's Christian thinking. Buddhism differs from any of the monotheistic religions in many important and fundamental ways. Most Westerners who grow up in a Judeo-Christian country tend to assume that Buddhism is cut from the same cloth, but it's really very different. There are some wacky Buddhists groups out there, but the are the exception.

One important difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that it isn't just a fixed set of rules that you "believe in" and therefore become a member of that religion. It has a practice and a philosophy that is an integral part of the religion. Those practices and philosophy are subject to misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Throughout the history of Buddhist countries it's normal for Buddhism to undergo a period of decline, and be in need of a fresh influx of practitioners from another Buddhist country to help bring back the practice of meditation (usually the first thing to go) as well as understanding how the different aspects of the practice and philosophy relate and are applied. This is what has happened in China, so a lot of Taiwanese monks and nuns and Buddhist scholars are coming to the temples here and helping to improve the quality of Buddhist education, scholarship and practice. Since Taiwanese Buddhism is quite strong, and has excellent scholars who have done great research into every aspect of Buddhism, they have a lot to contribute to Chinese Buddhism. In Thailand a great and highly revered monk, Ajahn Buddhadasa, helped to reform Thai Buddhism. Many Thai Buddhists had started to believe that Buddhism was just praying to Buddha like Christians do to god. The practice of Buddhism, meaning meditation, and the understanding of cause and effect, impermanence, etc., the key points of the religion, were slipping away. No one understood what meditation was, or the role it played. Ajahn Buddhadasa almost single-handedly helped to bring back the real Buddhist teachings and taught the lay people how to meditate, and that they should. Meditation had become something monks did (and even then only a few), and was misunderstood. So, Ajahn Buddhadasa fixed that problem by helping to modernize the teaching methods, and teaching lay people about meditation, as well as how to understand the teachings from a modern perspective.

This sort of thing is hard for people to understand who lump Buddhism together with monotheistic religions. Without a good understanding of what Buddhism really is, it's hard to understand these issues.

[yonglin]

Last year I spent a year in Qingdao studying language but was rather dismayed by how decrepit the non-Christian religious traditions in the mainland are. I'm also very interested in the cause of helping native traditions in the mainland revivify but am not sure where to start.

It kind of bothers me how you seem to assume that being non-religious is an intrinsically bad thing. I have been raised in a non-religious environment, I am a very convinced atheist, I have a very firm set of moral values, and I do not feel that I lack anything by not being religious.

I would also find it rather offensive if a foreigner came to Sweden and tried to make Swedes pay more attention to our Luterhan heritage, or why not those Pagan religions which were exterminated by some brutal Catholic missionaries some 1000 years ago...? It is my firm opinion that Chinese people - just like people in the West - have enough information and opportunities at hand to choose whether they want to engage in religious activities or not.

[leather_strap]

I want to help because I see a grave injustice. That being, the current condition in China was not due so much to the long period of decline as much as a rather drastic series of social martrydoms and enforced government policy. If you choose to be a proud, openly practicing devotee of 阿彌陀佛, chances are that you will be excluded from Party politics. Things like this, along with what lilongyue stated about believing the propaganda spread against traditional faiths by missionaries, leads me to believe that these aspects of traditional culture are looked on as shameful.

Numerous times while in the mainland I asked friends and teachers if they could help me find a tutor and/or friend who has some knowledge of religion, ec. has a home shrine, meditates, visits temples, reads scriptures, etc. In the end I was never able to find such a person through my 关系．The response was always a broken record of, "I don't know any such person, you should go to the countryside for that." Currently, that is the process I'm working on, overcoming the urban/rural language barrier.

In the states we have organizations both governmental and private to make an attempt (although too little too late) to help Native American's revitalize their economics, religion, and languages because they were destroyed due to their "backwards" nature and use of the land. Until I start seeing a movement in China to try to fix a problem caused through a very similar process, I will continue my efforts. As long as people keep telling me that China is inherently an atheist country, I'll continue to try to remind them of a certain "forgotten" aspect of the rich LONG HISTORY that Chinese people seem so proud of.

P.S.: Here in the states I've been invited by numerous Chinese (by both birth and nationality) to attend Christian services. One such friend wishes to become a pastor here. How is this nothing less then what I'm trying to do?

[fireball9261]

leather_strap,

Thank you for your efforts. Just don't get yourself in trouble. Good luck for finding people in China to help you study, meditate, and worship together.

[yonglin]

If you choose to be a proud, openly practicing devotee of 阿彌陀佛, chances are that you will be excluded from Party politics.

Although I'm far from being an expert myself, it seems to me that you have not quite grasped some fundamental aspects of how the PRC works. If you would for some reason happen to be unaware of it, the PRC is a communist state, governed by a communist party. Thus, unlike most Western countries (including the US), the PRC is not a liberal democracy.

The CCP claims to have its ideological foundation in the thinking of Marx, Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping. A principal tenet in Marxist thinking is that religion forms part of the social "superstructure": a kind of superstition created by the upper classes so that they can exploit and control the lower classes. Being a communist critically depends on the insight that religion only forms part of the "false consciousness" imposed by the ruling class (the capitalists) and does not have any value in itself. Marxists maintain that once communism (or socialism) has been realised, people will be happy without appealing to superstition, and thus, religion is rendered redundant. Consequently, being both religious and a member of the communist party seems hypocritical.

Now, in my opinion, the CCP in its present embodiment is very liberal with regard to accepting religious activities in society overall. In fact, it seems like they could not be less concerned with people's spiritual beliefs, unless they take such an organised form that the organisation as such poses a threat to political stability (i.e., the position of the Party). However, allowing religious people to be party members would be contradictory. (I'm not saying this will not happen in the future: the Party has been quite keen on abandoning many of Marx's ideas in the past.)

Things like this, along with what lilongyue stated about believing the propaganda spread against traditional faiths by missionaries, leads me to believe that these aspects of traditional culture are looked on as shameful.

Again, this is a misconception. Religious practice is not considered shameful, but rather perceived of as backwards or misguided, and as belonging to a social order of the past. A fundamental idea of communist theories is that society progresses as the mode of production changes, and as pointed out above - religion is redundant under socialism.

Now, I'm not even close to being some expert in Marxism or political theory, but I would encourage you to maybe read a little bit on the ideas which are shaping Chinese politics today, since doing so might enhance your understanding of how China works (or well.. is supposed to work). Since it seems like you're an educated person with an inquisitive mind, I imagine that this should not be particularly cumbersome.

Finally, to be a bit more constructive, I agree with wushijiao that you should bring your scholarly knowledge to document, translate, do academic work, etc. relevant to Chinese religion, in this is your passion. However, attempting to revive Chinese religion would - in my opinion - be a fundamentally misguided endeavour, and at most suggest that you have failed to tolerate the social order chosen by the Chinese.

[muyongshi]

be a fundamentally misguided endeavour, and at most suggest that you fail to tolerate the social order chosen by the Chinese.

And frankly quite futile as well. Chinese have never looked kindly upon "Western" influence in the religious sense even if it is in regards to their own religions. They will be nice about it and hey you may help one or two people but you can't help them "get back to their roots" as it were.

Yonglin laid it out quite well and I will not attempt to reiterate what she so eloquently put but I will say this: In terms of the direction the government has taken in response to religion is the right step as freedom of religion is a right. Some people find that religious practice is funny here, but far from shameful; they think there is no need for it, but they find comfort in it as well. I know many students who follow a very strict maoist thought yet they still frequent the local temples at test time. Why? Because to them it means luck. And if someone is devout and is of the younger generation, no one really even blinks an eye at them. They all look at it as peoples individual choice.

[shibole]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to help "native traditions in the mainland revivify" just in general like this. A statement this general just sounds silly. Are you talking about ALL native religious traditions, including animistic ones? To me this statement sounds almost equivalent to "I want to help people go back to doing everything the way they did it 500 years ago" just because "tradition is good" or something.

[liuzhou]

The idea of a foreigner coming into China to 'revivify' religion is not only misguided (for reasons given above) but also potentially illegal. There are laws and regulations to prevent foreigners proletyzing religion - even 'Chinese' religions.

[Woodpecker]

"In fact, it seems like they could not be less concerned with people's spiritual beliefs, unless they take such an organised form that the organisation as such poses a threat to political stability (i.e., the position of the Party)."

But Christians are being persecuted in the mainland, and this is on the individual level as well as large churches. They are watched very carefully indeed. Just being a practising Christian at all is a very dangerous position to be in whilst living in the PRC. How do you account for this? What have they done to upset the government?