習語? 成語? 熟語?? what?!! there is a difference?

[geek_frappa]

well, when i play idiom rally, some people who speak chinese say, "uhhh... i don't think that's a chengyu". then they say nothing else.

it is quite possible that the people who say that "i don't think that's a chengyu" are related to the authors of the phrases...

... but then i might be thinking that it is possible even native speakers don't know what an idiom truly is... after all, many can speak chinese; few often learn the language. (same as in english)

so, what is an idiom?

your answers may feel correct. but you may be surprised what you discover from each other...

[nnt]

geek_frappa:

What an idiom is is sometimes a relative notion:

- it is what someone told you is an idiom

- it is what a dictionary list as an idiom

- it is what your professor (or authorities) says is an idiom

熟語 is used by Japanese:

http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa101400.htm

Japanese also has words that educated people are more likely to know. Yoji-jukugo (四字熟語) are such words. There are hundreds of yoji-jukugo. Some of them are not even familiar to the Japanese, therefore they are often asked at a school's entrance examination to test one's knowledge.

As for Japanese, I think native speakers do not necessarily know all idioms, and dictionaries do not contain all existing idioms. And your professor does not necessarily know all's that in a dictionary. For a game, it is useful to take a dictionary as reference and referee. A game is not an exam, so it does not matter so much.

Is an old and no longer used idiom an idiom? Historically yes, but practically no, as languages are first communication tools for the present.

(btw, I find many people have fallen into your trap here:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1671

I have successfully resisted the desire to enrich the idiot list...

geek_frappa 你真苯 !)

[geek_frappa]

stick to answering the questions.

some "btw"s aren't as cute as they seem when you post them...

[skylee]

This explanation on 成語 is from 現代漢語詞典 -

人們長期以來習用的、簡潔精闢的定型詞組或短句。漢語的成語大多由四個字組成，一般都有出處。有些成語從字面上不難理解，如"小題大做"、"後來居上"等。有些成語必須知道來源或典故才能懂得意思，如"朝三暮四"、"杯弓蛇影"等。

The same dictionary gives this explanation on 熟語-

固定的詞組，只能整個應用，不能隨意變更此中成分，並且往往不能按照一般的構詞法來分析，如"慢條斯理"、"無精打采"、"不尷不尬"、"亂七八糟"、"八九不離十"等。

What an idiom is is sometimes a relative notion:

- it is what someone told you is an idiom

- it is what a dictionary list as an idiom

- it is what your professor (or authorities) says is an idiom

This makes some sense IMHO.

[geek_frappa]

hmmm... very fascinating.

so then, not everybody may have recognize the different between CHENGYU and SUHUA (common saysing)?

a CHENGYU may be a SUHUA in certain areas? a CHENGYU does not need to be 4-characters??!

[benotnobody]

An idiom, in English at least, is a form of expression peculiar to a language, and usually has a significance other than its literal one.

Another meaning for chengu is "set phrase", a phrase that has a set meaning incomprihensible in another language.

Is this helpful to anyone or am I just being dumb again...