shibo77 Posted May 8, 2004 at 07:13 AM Report Posted May 8, 2004 at 07:13 AM Hello everyone! I was curious about words in 北京话Beijing dialect that does not have a corresponding written character. Cantonese, Shanghaiese, and other well known "dialects" all "invented" their own special characters. Shanghaiese: 依. I will start with one word, that which to my limited knowleadge, does not have a corresponding written character, yet it is spoken daily in Beijing. (北京话Beijing dialect) 杯子(cei4)了. Bei1 zi5 cei4 le5. The glass was/is broken. (正规普通话Proper form) 杯子摔了. Bei1 zi5 shuai1 le5. Any Beijingers who understood this? Are there any more such words without characters in the Beijing dialect? I would appreciate the help! - Shibo Quote
back Posted May 8, 2004 at 12:28 PM Report Posted May 8, 2004 at 12:28 PM cei 确实没有相应的字来表达。 不过，即使是中国人也很难用汉字表达出地方方言。 如许多上海话就很难用文字表达出来，其发音只能意会。 Quote
39degN Posted May 8, 2004 at 03:39 PM Report Posted May 8, 2004 at 03:39 PM it's "碎" means 打碎 杯子碎了! Quote
shibo77 Posted May 8, 2004 at 08:02 PM Author Report Posted May 8, 2004 at 08:02 PM 碎sui4<< Does this correspond to Beijing Dialect's cei4? I didn't find the alternative pronounciation in my dictionary. Or are you correcting my 杯子摔了? I also thought of another which I use, 伯伯bo2bo5, 大伯子da4bai3zi5, and what I pronounce 大伯 da4bai1, 伯伯 bai1bai5. bai1 isn't listed in the dictionary. Thanks for the responses! - Shibo Quote
skylee Posted May 8, 2004 at 11:13 PM Report Posted May 8, 2004 at 11:13 PM 現代漢語詞典 actually lists "cei4" as "卒瓦" - 卒 on the left half and 瓦 on the right half, literally meaning the death of an earthernware. (It doesn't say it is dialect, though.) Quote
shibo77 Posted May 9, 2004 at 05:45 AM Author Report Posted May 9, 2004 at 05:45 AM Thank you skylee for that information! I think that maybe it is because Beijing dialect is the standard dialect and therefore not considered a dialect? - Shibo Quote
楚留香 Posted May 9, 2004 at 01:45 PM Report Posted May 9, 2004 at 01:45 PM FWIW, it must not be a very common character, it's listed in the supplementary section (plane 1) of the Unicode standard at location U+00024B62. Quote
ala Posted May 9, 2004 at 04:11 PM Report Posted May 9, 2004 at 04:11 PM Actually, many characters were "invented" for Mandarin as well. Classical --> Mandarin words formerly without character 此 --> 这 (claw = this) 彼 --> 那 (ancient Sichuan = that) 何 --> 什么 (squad + tiny = what) 此处 --> 这里 彼处 --> 那里 何处 --> 哪里 之 --> 的 (clear, accurate = possessive/genitive and modifier particle) 儿 (child = -r) 了 (to complete = aspect particle) 没 (to sink = to have not) 着 (to wear or reach = aspect particle) 地 (earth = adverbial modifier particle) There are many many more. The only difference between the Mandarin "invented" characters and the other dialects is that Mandarin has them standardized. For example, the Shanghainese word for 何处 (where) is pronounced alitaq. It can be written as 何里搭, 啊里嗒,嗄里答, etc. No standardization at all. The Shanghainese word for here is cidi 此地 or gettaq 搿答 (where 搿 and 答, like Mandarin's 这, is used phonetically 注音). In Shanghainese we still say 着衣裳 (wear clothes) instead of 穿. Quote
Quest Posted May 9, 2004 at 10:21 PM Report Posted May 9, 2004 at 10:21 PM ala, I hear you. Please read Lao Wei Jie's posts in this thread: http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=521&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 how arrogant mandarin speakers have become. Quote
sunyata Posted May 10, 2004 at 05:09 AM Report Posted May 10, 2004 at 05:09 AM oh wow, thanks for pointing out that thread... Quote
39degN Posted May 13, 2004 at 06:42 AM Report Posted May 13, 2004 at 06:42 AM ala, I hear you. Please read Lao Wei Jie's posts in this thread: http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=521&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 how arrogant mandarin speakers have become. oh, God, the posts really shocked me! Quote
39degN Posted May 13, 2004 at 06:45 AM Report Posted May 13, 2004 at 06:45 AM Actually, many characters were "invented" for Mandarin as well. i guess we should say "invented for modern Mandarin here." i dont think ancient north dialects had these vocabularies. meanwhile i believe some of them, such as 此处-这里, thier difference is the formar is 文言, the latter is 白话, or maybe 白话就是传说中的 mandarin? Quote
39degN Posted May 13, 2004 at 07:23 AM Report Posted May 13, 2004 at 07:23 AM the reasons why there were no 白话文小说 before 元 dynasty is in ancient china, writing and speaking are two different systems, since: 1. you have write things briefly, because before 汉, they wrote at 竹简, and obviously, there're no enough space to store bulk of 竹简. meanwile, writing draging-style articles will caused a real situation of 罄竹难书. 2. after we had papers(han and later), the papers should be expensive(just imagine the productivity at that time), so... so, in the ancient time, normal writing having some differences from dialects is a reasonable thing. seems off the topic alot. Quote
shibo77 Posted May 13, 2004 at 09:49 AM Author Report Posted May 13, 2004 at 09:49 AM Right, I just read the posts there, I think roddy or Quest should delete that thread... I know that lots of characters were invented for modern Mandarin, but I am just curious about uninvented ones, ones that can only be said but not written, any thoughts? Shibo Quote
39degN Posted May 13, 2004 at 05:27 PM Report Posted May 13, 2004 at 05:27 PM I know that lots of characters were invented for modern Mandarin, but I am just curious about uninvented ones, ones that can only be said but not written, any thoughts? yeah, see: bia1 ji1, 东西掉地上了 maybe, "啪叽"? or "啪唧"?=crack, sharp, snapping sound ------------------------------------------- 身体benr4 棒，吃嘛benr4香，您瞅准喽... "奔儿"? =特=特别=very ------------------------------------------- tui2 好了=太好了=it's great! "忒"? -------------------------------------------- Quote
shibo77 Posted May 27, 2004 at 06:22 AM Author Report Posted May 27, 2004 at 06:22 AM 倍 ber4 I think is the Beijingner's way to say 倍 bei4 忒 tui1 right! 叭叽 bia1 ji1 for 叭叽 ba1 ji1, I don't know, maybe 啪叽, 啪唧, there are so many sound words. -Shibo Quote
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