Singlish: Is it a "real" language?

[shibole]

I actually wasn't aware of "Singlish" until recently, and I find it interesting because it's a creole language that mixes elements of English with Chinese dialects, two very different things.

First note that this is NOT like "chinglish" since it isn't considered a creole language. The Wikipedia Chinglish page says "Chinglish is not the name of a language, creole language, pidgin, or dialect." So-called "Chinglish" is just bad English whereas Singlish is considered an actual creole language.

For Singlish there's even this wikipedia page that describes it (grammar) in pretty good detail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singlish

Some examples of Singlish from the Wikipedia page:

* Dis country weather very hot one. — In this country, the weather is very warm.

* Dat person there cannot trust. — That person over there is not trustworthy.

* Tomorrow dun need bring camera. — You don't need to bring a camera tomorrow.

* He play soccer also very good one leh. — He's very good at playing soccer too.

Considering how many people speak Chinese and how powerful China may become, I almost wonder if everyone on Earth might one day speak something like Singlish. Not to confuse it with reality or something, but in Firefly (soft sci-fi TV show that the movie Serenity was based on) the "alliance" flag is a combination of the US and PRC flags, the suggestion being that China and the US started colonizing space, then at some point formed a unified government. People in the show switch from English to Chinese occasionally (usually switching to Chinese to insult people as it helps to obscure the profanity from viewers). I have to wonder if they're really supposed to be speaking something like Singlish the whole time (even though the dialogue is in standard English.)

While reading up on it I found an interesting blog post:

Singlish - the evolution to being a proper language

Our native tongue is Singlish. Its not ENGLISH.

Evolve, or ossify.

[muyongshi]

Honestly, I hope not. I do not think that is a valid language and (even though some do) I find to be a perversion of the English language. I know languages are constantly in flux and I have no problem with that however this to me does not sound like a change but something that just ruins English. And I disagree with the evolve or ossify comment. But hey this is just one man's opinion.

[shibole]

I don't necessarily agree with the blogger, I just found it interesting that someone was pushing Singlish as a language. Perhaps it's not really a language but people are pushing it as such in Wikipedia out of a sense of national identity?

[atitarev]

There are many varieties of broken languages for every language. They are used mainly in speech and mainly by not very educated people or they just don't want to stand out. They disappear when they are better educated. I know a few Singaporeans - they speak standard English and standard Mandarin.

Some Aborigines in Australia speak some pidgin English. It's not that they have created a new language, they just don't know how to speak any better.

With broken languages there are generally no rules - if you learn to understand one group, you won't understand another, they will use different "rules". For the same reason many Arabic learners are frustrated to find out that formal standard Arabic, which is used for writing is not spoken anywhere, Arabs speak their own local speak, not very well understood in other places.

[shibole]

There are many varieties of broken languages for every language. They are used mainly in speech and mainly by not very educated people or they just don't want to stand out. They disappear when they are better educated.

You are obviously not a sociolinguist (I'm not either actually.) So how do you decide what's a broken language and what's a dialect? My wife speaks the Hubei dialect in addition to standard Putonghua. Is the Hubei dialect simply "broken Putonghua?"

It's easier to argue that things like "Singlish" or AAVE (African American Vernacular English) are just "bad English" but the problem is that some of these variations of "bad English" have stabilized to a certain point, with specific grammar rules of their own even if they are kind of loose.

I would disagree that people speaking Singlish or AAVE just stop speaking them once they learn standard English. Why? Because in some social situations it's important to demonstrate a group identity and speaking these dialects helps to demonstrate that to other members of the group.

Some Aborigines in Australia speak some pidgin English. It's not that they have created a new language, they just don't know how to speak any better.

Wouldn't that depend on whether the rules of the pidgin language have stabilized?

With broken languages there are generally no rules - if you learn to understand one group, you won't understand another, they will use different "rules". For the same reason many Arabic learners are frustrated to find out that formal standard Arabic, which is used for writing is not spoken anywhere, Arabs speak their own local speak, not very well understood in other places.

Well, the Wikipedia page does describe rules for Singlish, the AAVE page to a lesser extent. These rules could be artificial, created by someone who wants to further some sense of Singaporean national identity or something, but still. Looks like someone is trying to turn it into a legitimate language.

Anyway, my point was that modern English probably started out as "bad Anglo-Saxon" or something which may have started out as "bad Anglo" or whatever. Eventually it stabilized, people wrote grammar books and dictionaries, etc. I'm not sure of the history of the evolution of English but I'd be surprised if it didn't start out as some sort of creole considering what a mixture of other languages it seems to be.

I'm not advocating that the world adopt Singlish, but if the two most important languages in the world become English and Mandarin you have to wonder if some future language will be based on both. Then again maybe everyone in the world will just get formal education and learn to speak English properly, and it will displace everything else or something.

[atitarev]

You are obviously not a sociolinguist (I'm not either actually.)

I have an interest in sociolinguistics. Perhaps, I just show my personal attitude to such varieties.

Considering how many people speak Chinese and how powerful China may become, I almost wonder if everyone on Earth might one day speak something like Singlish.

I don't share your optimism Globalisation has a positive affect on making formal languages used wider. Even if there are categories of people who would use Singlish more comfortably within their own group of friends, the same people would code-switch to a more standard Singaporean English in some other situations. Most Singaporeans would not teach their kids such a language either (or recommend it to be included in the school program).

Having said this, your scenarios are possible and they happen when the language studies and promotion are neglected in a country.

I am not a native English speaker and I can make mistakes but I don't feel right when people use chat English in lower case letters.

In these linguistic forums, they use rules: use proper spelling and capilisation, I find this is good for preserving educated writing

http://forum.wordreference.com/index.php

My wife speaks the Hubei dialect in addition to standard Putonghua. Is the Hubei dialect simply "broken Putonghua?"

I don't have anything against major Chinese dialects (unless they don't follow their own rules but if you ask most Chinese dialect speakers, they themselves recommend to learn Putonghua first, dialect next. Here in Australia, I know a lot of Chinese speak Mandarin to their kids, although they would normally speak something else.

(I don't want to slip into this discussion: Putonghua vs dialects). Let me just say, Singlish is not a dialect (yet).

I second this opinion in the Wikipedia discussion on Singlish:

Singlish as a backward language and corrupted form of English.

I find it strange that a lot of people support the idea of Singlish without having anything to do with this phenomenon. As if they're bored with standard English.

[shibole]

I don't share your optimism

I'm not expressing optimism, just asking questions. I'm not actually advocating Singlish but I find the phenomenon interesting for previously stated reasons.

Most Singaporeans would not teach their kids such a language either (or recommend it to be included in the school program).

Hmm, well I know most people wouldn't want it taught in schools, but one of the arguments for why it's a creole language is that kids grow up learning it natively, supposedly. I don't really know. (Just reading the Wikipedia discussion page.)

I don't feel right when people use chat English in lower case letters

Just neglecting capitalization doesn't bother me that much since the rules for that are pretty simple, but if you're using grammatically incorrect "chat English" then it tends to make me think that you're a kid or something, and that perhaps you'll never learn proper English.

Let me just say, Singlish is not a dialect (yet).

So what defines a dialect then?

I find it strange that a lot of people support the idea of Singlish without having anything to do with this phenomenon. As if they're bored with standard English.

I haven't read the whole Wikipedia discussion page, but it seems like this might be explained by nationalistic sympathy (person also from a small country that developed its own dialect) or perhaps some sense of anti-globalization. I had never really thought about politics as it relates to language until now, except with regard to France (laws about how there must be a new French-derived word for every new thing, etc.)

[creamyhorror]

Pardon the thread resurrection.

The interesting thing about (modern) Singlish is, it possesses what is essentially Southern Chinese grammatical structure, and in many cases, English words are used as direct substitutes for Chinese words. For example, in the following example sentence, "already" directly translates Hokkien(/Mandarin?) 了 liao3.

"Aiyah, cannot wait any more, must go oreddy." = 哎呀，不能等下去了，要走了(liao3)。

And here the 等...才知道 structure of Chinese is transliterated as "wait until...then you know":

"Ah boy, don't run here run there, wait you fall down then you know ar." = 阿boy，不要跑来跑去，等你跌倒你才知道啊。

In the case of Singaporeans who can't speak English well (and can only handle Singlish), it's been proposed that the influence of Singlish's Chinese grammatical structure might be interfering with the acquisition of English structure. Weak English teaching in schools and the prevalence of Singlish in many environments (even offices) does not help this.

What's more interesting to me is that the structure of Singlish (which does take some elements from English) is possibly interfering with Mandarin-learning as well. I don't have evidence to back this up, but back in school we used to get accused by teachers and tutors of using English syntax in Mandarin, which is no surprise for kids who primarily speak Singlish and English at home.

Perhaps as a result of these factors, most Singaporeans are proficient at neither English nor Mandarin. We regularly use English words in our Mandarin speech because those are the standard terms in society ("Server room 里面的 fire sprinkler 拆了，你们的 fire department 会allow吗？"), and scatter Minnan and Malay expressions in as well. We also have limited Chinese vocabularies because many of us don't primarily operate in Mandarin. As a result, we regularly get 取笑ed by Mainlanders and Taiwanese for our poor diction and vocabularies.

There are few true bilinguals among the population; the ones I've met are those who grew up in proper Mandarin-speaking households (as children of Chinese teachers/intellectuals, etc.) but who attended English-speaking schools (and overseas universities). It doesn't happen the other way round, though - I haven't encountered a single bilingual individual who grew up in an English-speaking family. I think this reflects the crucial need for immersion in a language, especially if it's very different from one's native language (like Mandarin Chinese and English). An hour a day of Mandarin isn't going to cut it, if you're using English the rest of the time.

The world turns, and Singlish continues to fascinate and infuriate visitors to Singapore.

[Preet]

I hold a British passport and lived in Singapore in 2011, I can verify that SInglish is quite possibly an abomination to the English language

[OneFlewOver]

All languages start out as some kind of variation of another language. Whether it becomes a "language" depends usually on politics. In ex-yugoslavia today Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian and Macedonian are all considered different langauges, while 20 years ago there were considered one language. It is all politics.