WARNING: The Great China Construction Bank scam

[nitropuppy]

Beware of withdrawing funds from an overseas account with your debit/credit card when using a China Construction Bank ATM.

Back in November, I attempted to withdrawl some funds from an ATM in Sichuan Province. Using my Mastercard, I attempted to withdraw 3000 RMB from my account which is located in the U.S. I was using an ATM at a China Construction Bank.

The China Construction Bank ATM did the calculations, spit out a reciept and my card.

No money came out. I tried again. Same result.

Fortunately, the Bank was open. I walked to the service desk and asked what the problem was. They told me that the machine was out of money. (The receipt says it on the paper) I asked why then did my receipts show a withdrawl from my account in the U.S. They said it was a routine matter and that the funds would be returned. I hung onto my receipts.

They told me it might take fifteen days to return the funds. After 20 days my bank in the U.S. showed no return. I went back to the CCB Bank. They told me they had just sent the money the day before. OK! I'll check in a few days. A week went by and nothing came in.

I went back. They laughed about the matter and said "Don't worry". I told them it was not routine for a bank to cheat customers and that I was indeed worried.

It is now almost January. China Construction Bank withdrew almost $1000 USD from my account in November. ( 6000 yuan to be exact) They have not returned my money. They lie to me everytime I go into their bank. They say it was sent "yesterday". Then they say "Oh wait a few more days". On and on it goes.

Now, (Dec. 27th) I have been told that they have no record of the withdrawls. I show them the bank statements from my U.S. Bank and the receipts from their ATM. They stare at me blankly. They give me no answer. I guess I'm S.O.L.

Apparently they are doing this routinely to many people. Millions are being stolen by this Bank. (Or at least borrowed without interest on a long term scale.)

BEWARE; of China Construction Bank. They'll rob you and laugh in your face.

What would you do? Call the Police? (yeah right) Take them to court? Call a Television station? I'm shocked that they can get away with this.

[wushijiao]

I think you should call the police and ask for the police report, then report it to Master Card, the local gov., and your embassy. Your not out of luck yet!

[Lewceein]

I think you should get together as many Chinese friends as possible, and make a scene demanding to see proof that the money is being sent. Try to be really loud, repeat that the bank stole your money, and refuse to leave. Hopefully the manager will actually get off his ass, and make sure the money finally gets sent in order to 'avoid a scene'. I'm guessing you pretty much tried that before - I'm just thinking maybe numbers will help push the tide in your favor.

Isn't it strange though that the ATM didn't say "out of cash" on it? I use a CCB ATM almost every week in Shanghai, and whenever it doesn't have any bills it doesn't let me withdraw...

Anyway, good luck getting your money back.

[nomad]

See if you can get the charges canceled by Master Card. Call them up and dispute the charges.

[muyongshi]

Okay not doubting at all what you are saying but why do you say they are doing this to others??? I withdraw money from them all the time and have NEVER had a situation like this.

Another thing....you need to talk to a manager above branch level! Don't expect to get anywhere with the counter because they will not know how things really are processed and they are probably making up answers to save face. And you should just dispute the transactions in the states. All banks are insured for this reason.

But don't trash the entire company saying it's a "scam". There is no proof of that.

[Senzhi]

I had a similar issue with Bank of China in Chengdu and a European Visa card withdrawal at the counter.

I made such a big noise for all to hear and refused to leave after closing time. They tried to calm me down and get rid of me through their branch manager. No luck for them, as I persisted with a nearly offensive and noisy attitude. It worked, as suddenly all problems were sorted and I got my cash.

The same kind of nasty attitude helped me also get me a refund for an organised trip in Emeishan which turned out to be a life-threatening experience due to forecasted extremely bad weather conditions.

Lots of noise = bad publicity, and no business is going to be so stupid to let that happen.

[nitropuppy]

First thing; Muyongshi, I know they have done this to countless others because a slew of customers came into the bank after I did. They all had it happen to them. Then the bank shut the machine down. Nobody got their money back that day. After talking to many Chinese friends and associates, they all told me of either it happening to them or they heard of it happening to others.

Second; I did make a bit of noise about it. After a month had gone by, I went in and demanded my money back. Ishowed my bank statement from the U.S. I showed my receipt slip. I told this to the branch manager. HE'S the one who laughed in my face. I got red faced and angry. I was politely escorted out by the Banks security personel.

My Chinese friends and associates all told me I was foolish to go to China Construction Bank in the first place. They all suggested the China State Bank. (wish they had told me sooner)

And it's true; most banks in the entire civilized world that have ATMs, all set up their machines to tell you when it's out of money.They don't normally take the funds. I have never heard of an ATM taking funds from an account but not spitting out the cash. Or at the very least, the tellers inside the bank should honor the receipt slip when it is validated.

During my 2 month long discussions with the manager of the China Construction Bank, he himself told me the delay in returning my funds was because of a backlog of other customers waiting for their refund. I asked him how many. He looked at my reference number on my receipt slip (it's 7 digits long) and told me that there were thousands of numbers ahead of me. (Now they tell me they have no records. One lie after another)

What does that tell you? Tells me they're doing this on a large scale. Even if they return all the money in a month or two, they still have the advantage of creating a large surplus to work with and gain interest on it for free.

I've seen and read of this scheme before. One institution in the U.S. took just 2 cents from every account they had. (it happened many years ago) But it was a national bank. They took 2 cents from millions of customers. Most people never bothered to chase down their 2 cents. Finally an independant government accounting firm caught them red-handed with the scheme. It had been going on for almost 3 years. They had ripped off depositors to the tune of millions of dollars.

No,... this is no accident. China Construction Bank is playing games here. You can take that to the Bank.

[liuzhou]

They all suggested the China State Bank.

Never heard of it.

(And they are all state owned anyway.)

I realise you are unhappy but you will get more sympathy here if you are consistent in your story and less hysterical.

You say "They stare at me blankly. They give me no answer" then say you have been having two month conversations with the manager who has supplied fairly detailed information. Which one is true?

And repeated unverified stories of scams such as your story about an unidentified US bank are unhelpful. Which bank? When? Urban Myth?

Also, you will get on a lot better in China if you don't get red faced and confrontational. That is almost guaranteed to fail.

[Senzhi]

Also, you will get on a lot better in China if you don't get red faced and confrontational. That is almost guaranteed to fail.

I agree this is mostly the case, except when there's a substantial financial loss involved.

How would you feel?

In my own experience, I find that 'keeping face' is key for both parties. However, I also find that people are not afraid to lose face if it makes them benefit financially.

[roddy]

What, if anything, are your home bank / credit card company saying? Personally I think I'd give up on the local bank pretty quickly and try that tack.

[zhwj]

The US bank scandal took place in 1983, as described in Wikipedia.

Your experience reminds me of horror stories I've heard from people who've had impossibly difficult times getting banks to solve their problems - at various banks in China, so I'm not inclined to see this as evidence of a big Construction Bank scam.

And as much as it rankles to think of them "creating a large surplus to work with and gain interest on it for free," Chinese banks that handle international transactions tend to work the time-frame in their favor anyway - how many weeks does it take to clear a cheque?

[liuzhou]

The US bank scandal took place in 1983, as described in Wikipedia.

[nitropuppy]

To Luizhou, the time line is important here. In the first few weeks they told me it was no problem. They said my money would be returned in about 10-15 days. Then they told me it would take some more time. Then at about week 6 the manager told me there were thousands ahead of me. Just recently, at week 7.5 he told me no record existed and when I showed him hard copies, he stared at me blankly. I ask him to explain the difference. He had no answer for me and shrugged.

Roddy, I have talk to my U.S, Bank. They asked for a CCB statement that I never got cash from the machine. I E-mailed them a scanned picture of my receipt slip. They told me they weren't equipped to translate the document. The CCB refuses to give me a statement of the loss of funds or that the machine was out of cash. "We don't issue those" I was told.

Mastercard says that they will only challenge retailers. (Online and actual retailers) They say the can't handle an ATM Bank issue that's with a foreign Bank. (especially one in China)

If I sound shrill in my descriptions of what has happened,......sorry. I'm not panicked and shrill about it. But, I am a bit angry. I see no difference in what CCB did and a common mugger. I could always punch a mugger in the face or call a cop but I can't do anything to a large Bank. Look, $6000 yuan is not going to break me but how would any of you feel if a supposedly upright and honest institution suddenly stole $900 bucks from you? If you wouldn't care, then come on over for a cup of tea. It's gonna cost you 6000 yuan though.

[Lu]

Going to the police might not help, but it will probably not hurt either.

Apart from that, do you have any friends in high places? That tends to help a lot too. Have the friend call the bank, have them yell at the bank if necessary, that might make things easier. And Senzhi's idea doesn't sound so bad either, make a scene, yell, demand the higher manager, refuse to leave, tell all incoming customers, that kind of thing. For women I'd recommend crying, it has worked well for me, but it seems that's not a good option for men.

[nitropuppy]

I tried crying. Bawled like a baby who just got circumsized. (all's I got was a napkin to blow my nose in. It was free though) Just kidding,............they charged me for the napkin. I thought of calling Premier Wen Jiabao, but I heard he's pretty busy this month.

I did however get in touch with Al Gore. He said he could help me but only if I got involved with some weird Carbon Credit scheme. I passed on that idea. Besides he's so full of himself these days. (Nobel prize and all)

I then devised a perfect plan to break into the vault. It was absolutely foolproof. But, it involved a helicopter, a gang of 12 guys and some very high tech equipment. Didn't seem cost efficient to just get my $900 bucks back. The guys in the gang argued that we should take more than just my $900 dollars. I told them that would be dishonest and I wouldn't stand for it. ( they beat me up and stole my wallet)

So, I'm back to square one. They only thing I can do now is vent my rage with a little humor. They can't steal that from me!

[shibole]

Sounds like maybe transactions with credit cards or debit cards are better handled at the non-automated human teller. It's hopefully a little harder for a real human to charge your card, then refuse to hand you the money.

When you called your US bank, did they offer you any advice on how to avoid getting ripped off by foreign ATM machines? It sounds like there's basically no recourse with your US bank if something like this happens. What if the machine charges your card and doesn't even spit out a receipt? I mean I don't see how you can prove that you didn't get your money from an ATM unless you bring a documentary film crew with you or something.

They told me they weren't equipped to translate the document. The CCB refuses to give me a statement of the loss of funds or that the machine was out of cash. "We don't issue those" I was told.

It's probably hopeless, but you might try to get a statement from them saying that they have a policy of refusing to give statements regarding whether or not an ATM dispensed cash. If you can't get that then ask them for any documentation at all on any policy that might be related. I'm not sure they can get away with "we have no written policy on anything at all." People in the banking industry tend to respect documentation above all else, and the more you have the more legitimate you look. I'm betting CCB probably is required to have some sort of policy documentation in English in order to engage in any sort of international transaction. If it's in broken English then all the better to demonstrate to your US bank that CBC doesn't have its act together. You really need some sort of documentation to prove to the US bank that you've made a serious effort to deal with CCB, even if all they'll give you is policy brochures in broken English. Ask them to stamp the brochures with a date and sign or stamp them with the bank seal if possible.

I would keep harassing your US bank and keep trying to escalate the issue with their customer support. Provide as much of whatever you can get from CCB. You're probably more likely to get somewhere with the US bank if I had to guess. You might also try to figure out which ATM transaction processing network was used and file a complaint directly with them. You might also threaten to file a complaint against the US bank with the ATM network in order to get somewhere with the US bank's customer support. (I don't know how international ATM transactions work, so I don't know if this will work, but I suspect there are middlemen involved who might be useful to you.)

[gougou]

Doesn't the Construction Bank have a foreign investor/partner like most banks do? (Tried googling it, but couldn't find anything. I thought they did, though.) You might try and bring the issue up with them.

[gato]

Bank of America owns about 8% of shares in China Construction Bank, which has meant that withdrawals from CCB ATM machines with BofA cards are free from any service charges. I haven't any such problems in Shanghai. Did encounter a similar problem with an ATM in Taipei, though, so I know what mean.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200506/18/eng20050618_190966.html

Bank of America takes stake in Construction Bank

[self-taught-mba]

Having only read the first few posts let me say this:

I had a similar experience when I first came to China. I honestly can't remember what bank at once but I think it might've been China construction Bank. I lost about $2000 in total. I got most of the money returned but not all of. I blogged about it at that time.

He has every reason to be angry-- if effect his money was stolen. I don't know his financial situation but to many people $1000 might be a lot of money.

I deal with an absolutely wonderful financial institution, USAA (sorry only open to military veterans and active-duty personnel and their family) that was wonderful with the situation. The fact that I didn't get all of the money back probably is because I never followed up on the entire situation.

It has something to do with the branch offices having some kind of communication error, and you have to wait for the main bank reconciliation which takes place about once a month.

You need to dispute the charges with your credit/debit card issuer immediately! That is your only recourse -- make a fraud claim.

[flameproof]

See if you can get the charges canceled by Master Card.

I doubt that. You are protected against purchases. But this was a cash withdraw, not a purchase transaction. But in lack of other progress I would try that too.

I had a situation with CMB. I wanted to use my Union Pay Card in BJ to pay a hotel. The hotel said card doesn't' work, or no money. So I paid cash. Money was deducted from my account. In all fairness, I got the money back after 1 month or so.