Extremely Offensive 怡红院?

[Entropy_Rising]

I'm not sure exactly what I'm dipping into here, so if this is something quite bad, I don't mind the moderators swooping in and intervening.

In a recent activity I held in my classroom I had my students decorate my classroom for Christmas; we held a discussion activity which divided students into "naughty" and "nice" categories, the nice would get to create a paper snowflake to put on the windows whereas the "naughty" would get a piece of coal (a black piece of paper). Both students were to write their names on their respective items.

One kid in one of my classes - a great kid, mind you, great sense of humor - was selected as naughty (of course) by a panel of his peers and thus set about decorating his piece of coal. He put it up on the ceiling when he was done and that was that.

However, the next day when another class was coming in and reading the decorations of previous classes, there was a little crowd of people snickering and oogling at the decoration the above-mentioned student left behind. I took a look myself. I knew all the characters that he had written:

怡红院董事长

And then his name. Now although I knew the characters I didn't know what 怡红院 put together meant. My students assured me though, that it was really vulgar and I threw out my standard litmus test... "If the principal visited and saw that, would he be offended" to which they all answered an unequivocal yes. We decided then and there to edit it to something more clean and acceptable, so this student was downgraded (or upgraded) to the 厕所董事长.

But now I'm hugely curious. I looked on Baidupedia but it seems like the 怡红院 is just some sort of little historical building. I'm guessing, though, that the building has some pretty naughty connotations. Anyone out there know?

Thanks!

[studentyoung]

But now I'm hugely curious. I looked on Baidupedia but it seems like the 怡红院 is just some sort of little historical building. I'm guessing, though, that the building has some pretty naughty connotations. Anyone out there know?

怡红院 is a building appears in the great book “The Dream of Red Mansions”, which is the building where the hero Jia Bao yu lives in. Nowadays, 怡红院 becomes a name for brothel.

Though I don’t know what happened between you and that kid, I still hope you can forgive and forget.

Cheers!

[heifeng]

studentyoung beat me to it!

ok, here's a link anyway...

I say you make the kid wear a pimp hat for a week as a psuedo punishment, but afterall, he was one of the naughty ones:mrgreen:

[Entropy_Rising]

Hah! Thanks for the info. I was kinda thinking that's what that meant. Nothing happened between me and the kid though, I try to have a sense of humor a as a teacher so I just picked on him a little bit the next week.

[skylee]

The kid (how old is he?) has a good sense of humour.

[Entropy_Rising]

My students are 16 or 17. He's a pretty funny guy; also the only Mongolian in the grade.

[Lugubert]

From my Swedish point of view, I don't understand how "coal" could possibly be linked to Christmas or anything other than a perfectly neutral fire.

[newyorkeric]

In the US at least, parents say to their children that if they are naughty they will receive coal in their stocking instead of gifts.

[Lugubert]

Thank you. I have known of the US stockings for many years, and it's possible that some Swedes have adapted gift stockings, but nobody I know use them.

[studentyoung]

In a recent activity I held in my classroom I had my students decorate my classroom for Christmas; we held a discussion activity which divided students into "naughty" and "nice" categories, the nice would get to create a paper snowflake to put on the windows whereas the "naughty" would get a piece of coal (a black piece of paper). Both students were to write their names on their respective items.

One kid in one of my classes - a great kid, mind you, great sense of humor - was selected as naughty (of course) by a panel of his peers and thus set about decorating his piece of coal. He put it up on the ceiling when he was done and that was that.

However, the next day when another class was coming in and reading the decorations of previous classes, there was a little crowd of people snickering and oogling at the decoration the above-mentioned student left behind. I took a look myself. I knew all the characters that he had written:

怡红院董事长

Sigh~ ~! I haven’t read the previous post carefully enough until just now. Now I think I can have some idea on what happened. I myself don’t like the idea of distinguishing “nice” students between “naughty” ones, especially they’re all around 16 or 17, as you mentioned. Even a one year old little kid has very strong pride, less say they’re teenagers. But in such a way, those “naughty” ones’ pride must be hurt. I myself really don’t like it.

Sorry, but I really don’t know the basic ideas and guidelines on education in the US. (I guess your school is in US.) Please forgive me, but I think if a child does something wrong, it is an educator’s job to let the child understand how to behave is better or more acceptable in private (if possible), so that the child can understand what’ wrong and how to do next time while still feeling safe, protected and respected at heart. If a child doesn't feel safe, protected and respected in front of you, you can draw a conclusion at once that he/she doesn't trust you at all. In this case, no matter how nice you original intention might be, they won't listen to you at all.

I think “naughty” is not the really problem, but “why they become naughty” is. To punish the naughty students is not the educational target, but to find out and deal with “why they become naughty” is what educators and parents should take some time to do.

Sorry for my long winded words above.

Cheers!

[muyongshi]

Studentyoung I think you may be reading into it a tad bit more than you need to...

I could be wrong but I think the actual activity had NOTHING to do with who was really "naughty" or "nice". I think it was just supposed to be a game and nothing more. Moreover, I see what the boy did as just being a teenager. It is funny (inappropriate in that setting) but he is a teenage male after all. Most teenage boys do stuff like that.

[studentyoung]

Studentyoung I think you may be reading into it a tad bit more than you need to...

I could be wrong but I think the actual activity had NOTHING to do with who was really "naughty" or "nice".

Yes, you are right, muyongshi. I must confess I really overlook some words as below.

In a recent activity I held in my classroom I had my students decorate my classroom for Christmas; we held a discussion activity which divided students into "naughty" and "nice" categories

I’m really sorry for that!

Cheers!

[Altair]

Many of the posters here who did not grow up speaking English nevertheless have a great command of it. That makes it easy to forget that some of you may not know all the nuances of American language and customs. That's probably true even for the Brits and Aussies, when it comes to something so specific as Christmas traditions!

The word "[POP=淘气]naughty[/POP]" is a word traditionally used in reference to the behavior of small children. When used in any other context, such as the behavior of older kids or adults, it alway suggests a very light or even joking tone. It is no longer used much in American English.

The word "nice" is still common, but is also used more in children's language in reference to behavior. With reference to children, "be nice" means "to have good behavior" or "not do any mean things." With reference to things, "to be nice" means to be "enjoyable in a light way." With respect to adults, you can use "nice" as an [POP=定语]attributive adjective [/POP]and say that someone is a "nice" person. This means that he or she treats people well. You would not,however, tend to use "nice" in a [POP=谓语]predicate [/POP] (e.g., "that person is nice,"), since that suggests the speech children use and sounds too light.

The phrase "naughty and nice" automatically makes Americans think of Santa Claus, who is rumored to live at the North Pole using a list to keep track of which children are naughty and which are nice. On the night of Christmas eve, he flies from rooftop to rooftop on his [POP=冰床]sleigh [/POP]. When he gets to a house, he climbs down the [POP=烟囱/烟突]chimney [/POP] and puts presents in the [POP=传统长袜?]stockings [/POP] that the family has nailed next to the fireplace. He also may put presents under the Christmans tree. If a child has been naughty, Santa is rumored to put a lump of coal in the child's stocking, rather than a present. It is also rumored that if children are too excited to fall asleep on Christmas eve and try to stay awake to see Santa Clause, he will refuse to come.

By they way, no one wears these types of stocking any more, which are different from the type of nylon stockings that women still wear. People also do no longer use coal or charcoal to heat their homes, and so little kids usually do not even know what coal is.

The phrase "naughty and nice" is particulary famous for its use in the song "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town," where it may have originated. Here are the well-known lyrics:

Oh! You better watch out,

You better not cry,

You better not [POP=咕嘟着嘴?]pout[/POP],

I'm telling you why:

Santa Claus is coming to town!

He's making a list,

He's checking it twice,

He's gonna find out

who's naughty or nice.

Santa Claus is coming to town!

He sees you when you're sleeping,

He knows when you're awake.

He knows when you've been bad or good,

So be good for goodness sake!

So...You better watch out,

You better not cry

You better not pout,

I'm telling you why.

Santa Claus is coming to town.

[Entropy_Rising]

Sigh~ ~! I haven’t read the previous post carefully enough until just now. Now I think I can have some idea on what happened. I myself don’t like the idea of distinguishing “nice” students between “naughty” ones, especially they’re all around 16 or 17, as you mentioned. Even a one year old little kid has very strong pride, less say they’re teenagers. But in such a way, those “naughty” ones’ pride must be hurt. I myself really don’t like it.

Muyongshi has already addressed this post and studentyoung has already apologized for it but I feel as the designer of this class activity I still want to put a word in.

I made this post to ask about the word 怡红院 so I didn't really go into that much detail about the activity but I guess I'll flesh it out since some people have gotten confused about it.

I've come to realize as a high school teacher here that one thing students in China rarely get is time to socialize with each other. I've discovered that games that permit them to interact with each other socially and also to make statements about each other tend to go well; such games gather their own momentum as the students get excited about being able to discover things about teach other. I usually take this into account when I make my games.

The game I designed for that week served several simultaneous purposes; it allowed them to communicate with each other socially, it shared with them one customary feature of Christmas (which Altair explained very eloquently), and it gave me a fun and smooth excuse to get the students to decorate my classroom in preparation for the next Christmas party.

The game was a modification of another game I found online that has a number of students serve as a "parole board" and where other students attempt to use the best of their English abilities to convince the parole board to let them leave prison early. I instead had a panel of "Santa's Helpers" (the winners of last week's activity) judge whether or not the other students were naughty or nice because last year "Santa was hit by an airplane" and forgot which students were good and bad.

As others have pointed out, whether or not the students were chosen as naughty or nice had absolutely nothing to do with their objective behavior as a student (in fact, I think I'm a lucky foreign teacher in that I am able to sincerely say I think all of my students, all 1058 of them, are good kids). Everything was conducted tongue in cheek and the game, I must say, was quite a hit and served as a catalyst for some fun and genuine inter-student communication. A small, gentle girl would stand before Santa's helpers and all the large, strong, well-built boys in the room would start chanting "SHE'S NAUGHTY! SHE BEAT ALL OF US UP!" A handsome boy would sit before the panel, and all the girls would raise their hand and say, "Naughty, he is too handsome!" As you can see, the game was meant to be fun and nonchalant and now that that week was over, I can testify that's exactly how it went.

I also don't understand how I've been misinterpreted as being mad at the boy who wrote 怡红院. I wasn't at all, nor did I think I ever implied that. I think the kid is great and I was highly amused that he did it. That he got selected as naughty wasn't MY decision, nor was it meant to reflect that he was objectively naughty. He's just a class joker and his classmates definitely had fun poking fun back at him when he was in front of the Santa's Helpers panel.

The reason I made a game based on naughty and nice is precisely BECAUSE they are 16 and 17 year old students - they're old enough to get the joke... and they DID get the joke... but unfortunately because I was writing about an obscure vocabulary question and not the activity itself some readers here didn't get the joke.

Not to mention the next week, "Santa" came to class and showed them his true naughty or nice list - and all the students were nice.

Yep.

[muyongshi]

"Santa was hit by an airplane" and forgot which students were good and bad.

That's why he makes a list duh! :mrgreen:

(just to avoid confusion that was a joke )