Don't make me go "Green Pea" all over you.

[Yuchi]

Perhaps the reason why I'm not getting this 100%, is because I am chinese in appearance, but foreign/american in the mind. Green Pea's chinese is better than mine, and I have never encountered any of the situations mentioned.

One last question for the skeptics. If Chinese don't use Chinese with foreigners because they either want to practice or for ease of communication, then why pathetically try over and over again to get huaqiao to understand them, even if they know English would be easier (and they could practice)? Just ask your white friends who study Chinese if this has ever happened to them...

Because of the color of their skin. An assumption of their origin also covers their linguistic skills based on past experiences, media sources, stereotypes. They think all foreigners or rather people who look foreign know no chinese, and they all know english.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[yonglan]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

His point is that even when they can tell that the overseas Chinese they are talking with can't speak Mandarin they still want to speak it with him.

That's racism in the US, so it's racism in Taiwan. No, we can't say that different countries get different standards. That's been done repeatedly in the 20th century, always with disastrous consequences.

Work is a bummer, though. Everyone talks to my ABC coworker in Chinese, even when he speaks English to them. And they aren't too willing to Chinese with me.

I feel for you.

[edit]If you've got something to say to a particular member, use email or pm. Roddy[/edit]

[ChouDoufu]

Speaking to overseas in the US in mandarin racist? hardly if you just go about it the right way. Most of the time If I spoke to a OC in the us (wash. dc) I'd first ask if they speak mandarin, next I'll ask where they're from and finally I'd ask if they want to speak in english or mandarin. (granted this is when speaking with older people and at locations where they'd be expected to be able to speak chinese--in chinatown (or rockville) at a store predominantly frequented by Chinese. I would never go to a stranger and just say: do you speak chinese. Also when dealing with younger people, I'd only speak to them in chinese if I hear them speaking it first. As to what language I'd talk to them in, I let them decide. If it's one-on-one then they often switch to english, but if it's a group of people they tend to stick to Chinese.

what do you all think of this phenomenon: The Chinese person (mainland) who is incapable of understanding a foreigner's Chinese. This comes in two flavors: 1)what? he speaks chinese? 2)I can't understand you.

I've had situations where I'd want to buy a ticket or coffee-- a very simple transaction and the person wouldn't understand me. Only after repeating myself 2-3 times would they get it.

#2 is even weirder. In these situations there's usually another chinese person with the first. So I'd say something which they "couldn't understand". They'd just stare like I was speaking in gibberish. I'd repeat myself--the same blank face would stare back at me. The person next to them would then usually repeat what I just said to the person incapable of understanding. Then, they'd be like, "oh." Any furtheri nteraction would have to go through the filter of the second Chinese person who would completely understand me!

[yonglan]

ChouDoufu, I once watched a press conference with Zhu Rongji on TV, and though there was a translator a Japanese journalist asked a question in Chinese. Zhu said in Chinese, "Your Chinese is fine, but I can't understand you." He did it just to embarass the poor guy (guess why?). The guy's Chinese was fine. Sure he had a Japanese accent that a deaf man could hear, but his Chinese was perfectly understandable.

[geraldc]

What got me angry regarding these threads, was the suggestion that to improve your own Chinese the best thing to do is be rude to the Chinese, and I think quite a few other people here found it very insulting too. How much use will this board be, if you insult all the native speakers on the board?

Then there were other issues that by some people are percieved as racism. e.g. immediately talking in English to someone who is white. Well you call it racism, I call it service/politeness. Go to Hong Kong and see how many westerners have lived there for a number of years but still can't understand any Cantonese. All those multinational companies require the local Chinese to speak English, they don't require their foriegn managers to speak Chinese.

OK so it's a stereotype that all westerners can't use chopsticks, but you'll be amazed how many can't. On the other hand all westerners can use knives and forks ( In an unrelated note I was in a Thai restaurant, and this English guy got really upset that he hadn't been given chopsticks, and so he called the waiter over and asked for chopsticks ( I think he was trying to show off infront of his girlfriend). The waiter had to politely explain, that he was in a Thai restaurant, and Thais don't normally use chopsticks and if he'd looked around, he wouldn't have seen any chopsticks in the restaurant).

It's only been in the past few years, that westerners have started to learn Chinese in any numbers. I mean Dashan has become a star simply because was on a TV show, and everyone was stunned by how good his Chinese was. One person was able to establish nationwide fame based on his language skills, surely that shows what the situation was like regarding the standard of Chinese even amongst westerners who studied Chinese.

When I was in China the few westerners that I came across were: DJs in nightclubs, foriegn managers of joint ventures, footballers or hairdressers, and most of the time they were delighted if people spoke to them in English, as they didn't speak much/any Chinese.

Those of you studying Chinese in China/Taiwan are miniscule compared to the number of tourists coming through who don't speak Chinese. So people in the service industries in the main cities will carry on speaking to westerners in English for the forseeable future. It may be hard to find someone to converse with in Chinese, but stick with it, and I'm sure you'll find someone. Don't just write off all the Chinese, and decide to be rude with them. (from my own personal experience, start playing badminton, I always found the people best at badminton were the students who didn't study English, so when playing them you always had to talk in Chinese).

[roddy]

What got me angry regarding these threads, was the suggestion that to improve your own Chinese the best thing to do is be rude to the Chinese

Agreed, though I don't think anyone is actually doing this - only when meeting someone stupid or rude, which does happen now and then. I think Mr Pea in particular has managed to sound like he might be a very unpleasant person to meet, but I'm sure he's just a great big teddy bear really

As for the whole 'is it racist' thing, I really don't think it's a useful term to use. Race relations is such a big thing in the west, but virtually non-existant in China - there's none of the 'treat people equally, regardless of skin-colour' that you get in education, culture, media, etc. If someone persists in speaking a language the other person doesn't want to speak, because of the colour of their skin, then yeah, I guess you could call it racist. I'd chose 'rude' or 'ignorant' or 'stupid' though.

Speaking personally, I've lived in two provincial cities in mainland China and Beijing, and with the exception of the odd student who wants to practice their English and service staff who are either used to dealing almost exclusively with foreigners who can't speak English or have been told they have to speak English with foreigners, I've never had the kind of experience people are mentioning here - and in those exceptional cases, then hey, I live with it. Nothing to get worked up or rude about (unless the English-leeches follow you home. Then I get rude).

Roddy

[Guest]

Roddy, have you ever been to Taipei or Hong Kong? I'm curious how much of what I've seen is based on where I am, and how much is just because I notice it more. I may be totally off-base here, but from everything I've read, I think that mainland China is much more nationalist, and therefore less 崇洋(chong2bai4), and less likely to see speaking Chinese to a foreigner as 丟臉(diu1lian3). Many people here seem to see speaking Mandarin, and especially Taiwanese as lower status. I suspect it is different in mainland China. Is this correct?

Other than my frequent contact with 華僑 friends, the main reason I've become really aware of this langauge issue is that most of my caucasian friends here CAN'T speak English. Most are Spanish speaking classmates I met when I first got here. Of course they don't think it's "polite" when people speak to them in English. Also, my views were shaped by seeing the experiences and problems of a few of my taiwanese-born biracial students who can speak Chinese MUCH better than English, but struggle growing up here because of this cultural assumption that race determines language skills. I think I mentioned before that many of my students at that particular school have had a hard time feeling like foreigners in the only country they've ever lived in.

What do you think of this situation? Have you encountered Chinese people who look foreign in Beijing? So far in Taiwan, I've met about 8 Taiwanese adults and 30 kids that REALLY look foreign. It makes me worry a bit about what it would be like for my kids someday if I stay here.

[roddy]

Never been to Taiwan, been to HK a couple of times, but only briefly and both times I was happy to use English where possible - no point in confusing people with my shoddy Mandarin in a city which speaks Cantonese and English.

I don't know if this is related to nationalism or anything, but I suppose I can see that if English is a status symbol and the general level of English was better it might happen. I guess I've probably met a couple of people who've wanted to speak English because they like to show off how clever they are, but they haven't made too much of an impression as I don't speak to show offs for very long regardless of what language they're using. Oh, and my boss insists on speaking English to me, but as he's the head of department where native level english is meant to be essential, I can see why. And he doesn't speak to me much anyway

As for 'Chinese people who look foreign', no, I haven't. I've met a couple of people in passing who are of mixed race, but they'd had international (or at least international-school) education, and seemed to feel more 'foreign' than 'Chinese'. There are a few around - a friend of mine once went to a talk by the son of an American couple who'd moved to China to join the great Communist endeavour, who had been born and raised here and spoke English with a heavy Chinese accent. I had to actually think for a moment what you meant by "Chinese people who look foreign' - I initially assumed you meant foreigners who look Chinese, like ABC's, until I realised the words were in the wrong order.

Speaking of which, I have met a few 华侨 living in China. They have a tougher time I think, as people assume they will be able to speak Chinese (call this racist if you will, I call it meeting 9,999 Chinese looking people who speak Chinese and assuming the 10,000th will too), while for me people assume I can't - result: I look clever, and they look like (as one NZ born Chinese guy told me) 'the damned village idiot'. This was the same NZ guy as in this story (our 797th post, that was, and this is our 1762nd topic)

Roddy

[Guest]

i messed up w/ my cut and paste 崇洋 is what I meant. But I wrote pinyin for 崇拜.

Hmm... It could just be an issue with probabilities. If you believe in a racial stereotype about a group of people you'll be right most of the time, but occasionally you'll be wrong and it will suck for that person. If you make the same kinds of assumptions in Taiwan, maybe you'll be right ALMOST all the time... only being wrong VERY occasionally when meeting extra foreign looking "halfs", or missionaries kids (of which I've met a few.) I'll have to admit it's proabably disconcerting even for foreigners who meet them. Then, in Beijing, MAYBE that stereotype is NEVER wrong in a persons whole life!

It seems like there should be plenty of non-Chinese asians, though. Here, it takes a pretty dense local not to grok that lots of asian looking people DON'T speak Chinese. I mean, there are some that dense, but not many.

[Green Pea]

It's a VERY slow process that I'm sure I'll have to repeat every time I switch jobs, but it seems to be making some progress. After all, I can't go "greanpea" on people at work Wink

What do you usually say when you wanna get people to cut it with the English, and you have to talk to them for some reason, Greenpea?

You are in a tough spot. I would avoid complaining though. By complaining, you are distancing yourself. Sometimes people are at a natural disadvantage, as your case appears, which means you have to make up for it somehow. Usually, this requires working harder on your Chinese. You’ve got to get your level is higher than your co-worker. You’ve got to study more, learn more, and be more focused. I’m sure you know this already. In fact, I like your situation because it gives you a great benchmark to measure your improvements. Do you two speak Chinese together? Assuming your co-worker is really intent on learning too, then you two should only speak Chinese with each other at the office.

What do I say? Good question. I have no stock comments. It’s more the attitude I project and the way I communicate than the words coming from my mouth. For example, I may speak very quickly and code switch deliberately. (If you know words in Taiwanese, Shanghainese, or Cantonese, you might throw those in too.) If people speak English softly, I will raise my voice slightly forcing them to be very conscientious of their speech and hence less confident. If they are afraid of making mistakes, I will correct them. If there is a third person that doesn’t speak English, I will keep them in the conversation thereby isolating the English speaker. Most people even with solid English (roughly graduates with an English major and a couple years work experience) will get bogged down and will switch to full Chinese. There’s more stuff I do, but you probably get the idea.

[yonglan]

What got me angry regarding these threads, was the suggestion that to improve your own Chinese the best thing to do is be rude to the Chinese

That's news to me. I think they were saying they were rude when people refused to speak Chinese with them in a Chinese speaking country. I think there was also mention (maybe this was on the twin thread of this one) that it was perceived to be done out of obstinance. So they figured well, fine. I don't know.

[yonglan]

If you want to swear or insult someone on this board, please do so in Chinese because then Roddy doesn't edit it. That's part of this thread. It happened to me.

[yonglan]

If you want to swear or insult someone on this board, please do so in Chinese because then Roddy doesn't edit it. That's part of this thread. It happened to me. I am outta here

[roddy]

I presume Yonglan is referring to this thread, which wasn't edited as it was already closed and therefore at no risk of running off topic. Yonglan has indicated by email that he will leave the board shortly - personally I hope he won't.

Comments and complaints on moderation to pm or Suggestions / Announcements, as always, and we can let this topic continue.

Roddy

[woodcutter]

Ah. Der Anglo-Saxon and his attitudes! This tribe roams the world expecting the world to speak only Anglo-Saxon, even to the point of sending monolingual missionaries of language learning techniques to other places. Then when one or two above average tribesmen travellers do actually learn a little local lingo, they are upset to be expected to want to hear Anglo-Saxon, even if the offender is a humble fishmonger. Crazy fellows!

[trevelyan]

My experience has probably been closer to that of Pollywaffe, Roddy and the other mainlanders here. Of course you occasionally run into people who want to be your best friend. But it isn't a big deal to demur politely. I've never had someone try to do it maliciously.

If you have a real problem and you're not just being chatted up by aggressive language students, one strategy is to lead the conversation towards something (1) you really don't know, (2) the other person is interested in, and (2) they'll have difficulty conversing about in English. Most people prefer to talk in their native language when they want to express themselves.

As far as the Taiwanese lawyer goes -- I think continuing to act as interpreter in that situation invited the treatment he got. But the cognitive dissonance some Chinese get at hearing a foreigner speak Chinese is pretty strong. I was at an Internet cafe the other day chatting with the guy at the counter when a stranger interrupted us both to inform me that the guy behind the desk couldn't speak English. He was trying to be helpful, but didn't realize (1) I was speaking Chinese and, (2) HE was speaking Chinese to me.

It was funny, since everyone else caught the gaffe at once, but it goes to show how deeply engrained some perceptions are.

[Guest Yau]

I recently found that one reason that chinese refused to speak chinese to foreigners is that: when learners don't understand what chinese said to them, some of them assume these are chinese swear words and insulting expressions.

In these suspcious eyes, ancient chinese expressions are poisons. Foreigners not only refuse, and fail to understand them, but they also think you're going to "insult" them with these expressions.

So, when learners are eager to speak chinese with chinese, I wonder what they actually want to say? "Wo jiao Mr. Brown, wo hen hao, ni ne? nihao? zhege duo shao qian???" Stop wishful thinking, don't believe that you can communicate with chinese after having 90 units of Pimsleur Mandarin.

For yonglan and roddy's concerns, if learners think it's their privilege to skip the basic and simple ancient chinese expressios , no wonder why others see you as a foreigner because your proficiency in speaking in chinese is unknown to most people.

[roddy]

I'll take that as a failure to accept your final warning, Yau.

Roddy

[Guest]

Sometimes people are at a natural disadvantage, as your case appears, which means you have to make up for it somehow. Usually, this requires working harder on your Chinese. You’ve got to get your level is higher than your co-worker. You’ve got to study more, learn more, and be more focused. I’m sure you know this already. In fact, I like your situation because it gives you a great benchmark to measure your improvements. Do you two speak Chinese together? Assuming your co-worker is really intent on learning too, then you two should only speak Chinese with each other at the office.

Well, the tragedy of it is, he isn't all that intent on learning. Everyone talks to him in Chinese anyway, since he looks Chinese, so he kind of takes it easy. He'll usually talk to me, as well as the Taiwanese coworkers in English, and all of us reply to him in Chinese. I talk to the others in Chinese, and they all reply to me in English.

The result is... kind of a draw. I can read and write much better than him. I get the tones right more often. and my grammar's better too. But, his accent sounds more Taiwanese (like no 轉舌, and he says 'e' instead of 'er'), he speaks more fluently, and his listening comprehension is better than mine.[/i]

[Guest kungfu]

I'll take that as a failure to accept your final warning, Yau.

Roddy

And the implied action is that you deactivate the account, and refused to think why ancient chinese is a swear word and learners are often treated as foreigners.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=23246#23246

Yau