Chinese "Ivy League"? And Masters Degrees

[mokushiroku]

Let's say I graduated from a good university in the US with a BS in mathematics and another BS in statistics. Now let's say I get a high score on the HSK (I plan to take the advanced test so just passing will give me a high score). My plan would be to enter a Chinese "Ivy League" graduate school to study probability and statistics for a Masters.

I want to do this since I have spent the last two years studying Chinese and don't want to give it up by going back to school. I want to polish both of my skills at the same time. I thus feel that studying statistics in Chinese is the only reasonable direction for me to go. At the same time, I know that American universities are likely the best place to study anything and would ultimately like to get my Ph.D. from an American school--this is my reason for going for a Masters and not a Ph.D. right away unlike most people in this field do.

However, I have some worries as follows:

1) In America nobody gets a Masters in math or statistics; if you have a Masters it means you've failed out of the Ph.D. program. However, in China it seems you cannot directly apply for a Ph.D. program--you must first get your Masters. In this sense, I worry that if and when I apply to an American university for my Ph.D. many schools might mistakenly believe I've failed a previous attempt at a Ph.D.

2) It is possible degrees from Chinese universities are looked down upon by those looking at Ph.D. program applications. I worry that getting my Masters in China will hurt my chances at getting into a good Ph.D. program in the US.

3) By the time I apply for grad school, I will have been out of school for three--almost four--years. I worry this fact my hurt my chances of getting into a good Chinese Masters program. I will be either 24 or 25 when I apply.

I hope anyone with any related information could help me analyze this situation and address my concerns. Thanks to anyone who can help.

[gato]

As long as you have good grades from a good undergrad program and good GRE scores, US schools won't care at your master's degree. If you go with a school in China with good math programs like Beida, Qinghua or Shanghai Jiaotong, you should be fine. Applied math (as opposed to math theory) is an area that China is strong in.

[yonglin]

I'm sure it would indeed spice your profile up, and I'm sure you'd have space to explain yourself and your intentions in one of them "Statement of..." once you apply for your PhD program. If you look at the graduate student profiles at the schools where you intend to go for your PhD, I wouldn't be surprised to find a good amount of students graduated from Beida, Qinghua, etc.- these schools are famous and known to be good by American faculty.

A few things you might want to be aware of:

1. Chinese master's programs are looong: two years at least, and three years most often. You may want to assess the opportunity cost of this time. (I would probably have applied to do a master's in China had they just been a bit shorter... I'll be 23 before I graduate from University, and were I to go to China for a master, I'd be 26-7 before I could actually enter a PhD program, which seems to put you at somewhat of a disadvantage, at least in economics, which I'm going for.)

2. The learning culture is likely to be very different. Just think about whether you could flourish in this kind of environment, which is likely to be very different from the American.

3. Competition will be very harsh. It might not be difficult to get in: as a foreigner, they'd probably let you in if you just pay the fees, and they might even apply lower grading standards for the laowai (I've heard of this more than once). However, if you want to get into a top PhD program, you'd really have to stand out and impress your professors. Only in this way could you make it all the way into those desired American PhD programs. If you think you can do this, go ahead, but remember competition is likely to be a lot more harsh than, say, at an American Ivy League (keep in mind that the US has at least 10 really good universities for a population of 0.3 billion, and China has two good universities for a population of 1.3 billion). In something maths-related, you wouldn't have much advantage of your western education compared to a Chinese education.

I guess gato is implying that you'd just use your undergraduate credentials to get into an American PhD programs, but if you actually intend to finish a Chinese master's program, these could be quite out-of-date before you're done (e.g., your professors might have forgot about you).

You might also look into enrolling in an American program and go to China as a visiting student. If you're willing to extend your program a little, I'm sure there would be no problem doing this. You might also want to do some of your dissertation work in China (just pick a topic in which there are many great Chinese scholars - then you would have an awesome reason to pursue some China field studies... )

[Jamoldo]

I would say, don't waste your time going to a Chinese University, even if it's Beida/Tsinghua for something like Stats. US schools are much more highly regarded. If you don't want to forget your Chinese, then I would practice by making Chinese friends/having a Chinese boy/girlfriend, reading a Chinese newspaper on occasion, and just studying a little bit a day to maintain your Chinese. You could also try to join Chinese clubs, or live with Chinese students. How about fellow Chinese students? As a Math/Stats student there are bound to be Chinese students fresh from China who would love to speak Chinese with you. You have lots of options...

Yes by going to Beida/Tsinghua your Chinese will get better and you'll get a Master's Degree from a prestigious institution, but it will not be as well looked upon as something even mid tier in the US. A Chinese education, by global standards just isn't that good, given bureaucracy, corruption, fraud and an over-reliance on mindless testing.

In the end, you can always take a break and move to China for a year or two and immerse yourself. It's not an expensive prospect...

Just my two cents.

[wushijiao]

Chinese master's programs are looong: two years at least, and three years most often. You may want to assess the opportunity cost of this time. (I would probably have applied to do a master's in China had they just been a bit shorter

I agree with that. In 2006, I got into Fudan as a 高级进修生 in 国际关系, which meant that I could take any BA, MA or PhD classes in that major, and some other Fudan classes (some of which cost extra tuition). I found some of the classes to be pretty good, while others were poorly structured/poorly taught, and others were pure propaganda. Overall, I wasn't all that impressed.

I had originally had the idea to do a MA, which would take three years. By that time, I thought, my Chinese would put Dashan to shame, and I would easily be able to do better and brighter things (like American PhD programs, or government stuff...etc.)

However, due to the fact that I felt that I wasn't really learning all that much, I felt like it would be the wrong path, mainly because the opportunity costs were just too high (three years!). On the other hand, I think the biggest advantage to doing such a thing is that you are guaranteed to make good friends with a lot of native Chinese people in your major. These people will be really smart, and the depth of your languages skills will be amazing by the end. For me at least, it was great to make some friends in Fudan who loved to talk about the details of American history or Chinese political reform, rather than the typical conversations you might end up in ("can you use chopsticks"?). I met some other MA students who had been there for a year or two (from Korea, South Africa, Turkey, Japan, Vietnam...etc) and their academic and colloquial Chinese skills were are outstanding.

So, I can see the pros and cons. It might be worth really looking into a program in depth. If possible, ask if there are any other foreign MA students there, and ask if you can talk to them. While I think that the opportunity costs might be too high, the potential plus sides are also very high. I also don't imagine that Chinese elite schools would be that much behind American schools in math, but that's pure speculation on my part.

.

[opper567]

What about doing a Master's degree in Chinese Language and Linguistics and then going for a PhD in Chinese in America?

[simonlaing]

Point 2 about the learning culture is important.

In China University classes are like High school classes , Lecture with a Power point, lots of reading (or not) and a test at the end of the semester, that doesn't really change much from year to year.

Also the degree will not be well respected when you get back to the states where the Big jobs and degrees are.

I would do a PHD in a second tier school in the US if you couldn't get into the Ivy league. Later you can go and teach Math or Stats as a professor in China in english and then in you free time study Chinese.

It is usually 3 years for the Masters. Which is a long time of sitting in lectures.

Chinese Universities are not quite there yet, even if their research departments or companies produce good material.

Good luck,

SimoN:)

[ipsi()]

Wait, Masters at a Chinese University is actually just more coursework? That sounds kinda dull - over here (and I'm assuming it's similar in other Western countries) it's coursework for your undergraduate degree (Science, Arts, Commerce, whatever), then a mix of coursework and research for Honors (provided Honors is a separate degree, which it isn't for Law and a few others), then purely Thesis-based (and thus research-based) for both Masters and PhD. Overall, it takes about 8 years to go from no degree to PhD. Some courses differ, but that's the most common, I'd say.

[Jamoldo]

In the US I believe its a mixture of coursework and thesis stuff for Masters and then purely research for a PHD. Though most places for things like Math and Stats offer you a spot in a PHD program right after the BA/BS. Then after 2-3 years you get your Masters and continue to do a PHD. So a Masters is kind of like the road to a PHD. Of course there are many people who just opt to do the Masters and there are programs that offer just a Masters..