The difference between 先 and 前 ?

[IGING]

Please explain the difference between 先 and 前.

For instance,

Between 先 祖 魯 班 公 and 前 祖 魯 班 公 , which one is grammatically correct?

If both are wrong, please help me to write the correct expression.

Thanks

[skylee]

If the word is to be followed by 祖, then 先 looks more appropriate. 先祖 and 祖先 are common words. I've never heard of 前祖.

Other members may be able to tell you what is or is not grammatically correct.

PS - you might also wish to consider 祖師爺 or 祖師 instead of 先祖. Explanation of 祖師爺 -> http://www.baidu.com/baidu?ie=gb2312&ct=1048576&cl=3&word=%D7%E6%8E%9F%A0%94

[IGING]

Dear Skylee

Thanks for your reply.

I hope to receive more opinions from other friends on the correct expression to be used.

By the way, I would like ask you:

Is the term 前賢 very common in Chinese?

In Vietnamese temples, this term is used to refer to the pioneers (先 驱) who reclaimed a wasteland and had most contributions. Thus they are worshipped in local temples.

Thanks again

[fireball9261]

前 = previous or ex, and it has the meaning of someone with that role previously.

先 = dead when it is located before a person or any terms that means a person.

先賢 and 前賢 might look the same, but they actually have a slight differences:

先賢 = Dead previous 賢.

前賢 = Previous or ex person who is/was a 賢, and he could be still alive at this time! but retired, etc.

There are also the usual ways of usage. For example, you would use 先師 (dead teacher), but never 前師 (ex-teacher) because in China people never treat the teacher as the ex-teacher. If a person is your teacher for a very short time, he/she is your teacher for your whole life. To call him/her your 前師 (ex-teacher) is very disresectful for your previous teacher!

However, for 賢人, there is no such taboo. They could be either dead or ex, but live 賢人. Thus, there are both 先賢 and 前賢.

There are also both 先驱 and 前驱.

[IGING]

Dear Fireball9261

Thank you for your explanation.

I see the expression 孔 聖 先 師 and 先 師 may be understood as "the first teacher".

For example, in FungYouLan's A Short History of Chinese Philosophy Dr. Fung says that Confucius is regarded as the first teacher in China.

Thanks again

[fireball9261]

I see the expression 孔 聖 先 師 and 先 師 may be understood as "the first teacher".

For example, in FungYouLan's A Short History of Chinese Philosophy Dr. Fung says that Confucius is regarded as the first teacher in China.

Dear IGING,

You are welcome!

I don't want to offend you, but I am a software engineer, so I speak more directly and plainly than most people. I am also very careful about Chinese language, so I don't want you to have the wrong interpretation about certain Chinese terms. That said, I would deal into the term of the "先師" in "孔聖先師".

Actually, it should be translated exactly as "dead (previous) teacher" and not "first teacher". Confucius was considered as the "first teacher" for respect, but his title was not reflecting that fact (first teacher) at all. You could say the title "聖" is sort of close to it, but it does not mean the "first teacher" also. Besides, modern day people like to call someone as "first" this or that, but traditional Chinese or, I could probably say, most traditional Asians are much more practical or careful in calling anyone the "first" of this or that. Before Confucius, there were a lot of teachers in China, and Confucius was not the first or even the second or the third teacher in Chinese history, so how could he be called "the first teacher" in China? He was called the "first teacher" in China as the rating of importance, and "先師" does not denote that meaning, either.

I hope I don't sound too rude or ill mannered in this post. If I offended anyone, I am sorry about it, and I appologize.

[IGING]

Dear Fireball9261

It's OK. All opinions are welcome to see the Truth.

That Confucius is the first teacher is Dr Fung's point of view in his A Short History of Chinese Philosophy, Macmillan1967, p. 38-48. He has his own arguments.

Thanks for your opinion.

Best

[SWWLiu]

Think of it as: Confucius was the foremost teacher [of his time].

By the way, I think all appellations of "dead" teachers could be modified as "late" teachers.

[muyongshi]

You know IGING just in case you didn't know, I just thought I would mention that all those who have replied to your post are NATIVE speakers. I'd listen to them...their opinions are pretty accurate on these things...

[zozzen]

interesting thread. For describing people, 前/ 先 can be fairly complicated, and the expression is all about a matter of convention.

we never say "前祖", but we do say "前人" to describe our cultural and social ancestors.

In describing marriage relation,

前夫 refers to one's divorced husband.

先夫 refers to one's husband who past away.

To add complexity, we would also say "前妻" (one's divorced wife), but idiomatically, no one says "先妻".

About social status, "先輩" and "前輩" are both used, and the latter one is more common in Chinese, the former one is common in Japanese kanji.