shang 上 used as a verb complement

[James Garrison]

瞧我桌上那些照片。

qiáo wǒ zhuō shang nàxiē zhàopiàn.

Look at those photos on my desk.

In the above sentence, "shang" wouldn't have a tone, or would it? It's my understanding that when "shang" is used as a verb complement it has no tone, but then I am kinda fuzzy on the whole verb complement thing per Chinese. I had written the pinyin for that sentence with shang in the fourth tone but my tutor told me that I was wrong, and likewise wrong in another similarly structure sentence.

If thats right and shang has no tone in some instances, can someone explain the difference?

[muyongshi]

Ummm never heard of that...it should not be qing sheng, it should be said with the tone like it normally is. Just in speech you are not going to emphasize the 4th as much and so maybe they think it should be qingsheng. But it's not....just a not heavily emphasized 4th tone.

[foodtarget]

I asked a Chinese friend and they said they definitely pronounce it 4th tone. I have heard, however, that people from different areas of the mainland use qing sheng to different degrees, so maybe that is at the root of this issue.

[yonglin]

In fact, I would say that 上 used as a verb complement has a neutral tone. However, 上 is not a verbal complement in your sentence! I mean, where do you have the verb? As far as I'm aware, 上 in this case is just a postposition telling you about the location (in relation to the table).

上 used as a complement would be for instance (can't think of some creative examples)

写上你的名字

填上职业

Here, 写 and 填 are verbs, 上 is a complement (of result), and 上 is pronounced in the neutral tone.

[James Garrison]

Okay, it seems my tutor made a mistake, but in the example sentence the previous poster wrote:

写上你的名字

is "shang" really a verb complement in the above? Isn't a verb complement the direct or indirect object of the verb, and gives a sense of completion to the sentence? Or is it a verb complement in the phrasal verb sense?

[vinegrower]

I am a Chinese in Mainland, I am surpised about U study for. It's too small to be important. It's useless and mainingless if U wouldn't be a Chinese grammar teather.

I want to make my suggestion: In this sentence and in all language stations like this--地上，墙上, 天上, 手上，脚上, etc. --U only pronounce it like a unstress of 4 tone. The stress tone is the character before 上. It's enough. best way to study the tone is listen a Chinese how to read it.

By the way, i will be appreciate if you point out the mistake of my English.

[James Garrison]

I know it seems meaningless, but for lack of fluency (yet) I try to substitue precision. Also, there really is a dearth of consistent grammar rules about Chinese. At least on the internet. Also, I just got a message from my tutor, who consulted a professor of Chinese at her uni in Florida, and he said that if 上 is a suffix of a noun, then it gets no tone.

[Mugi]

Listen to your tutor (and the college professor) - in your example 上 should definitely be read in the neutral tone. The only people likely to say it in a 4th tone are non-native Mandarin speakers, or possibly Mandarin speakers from the southwest. As a noun suffix location marker, 上 should be read in the neutral tone in Modern Standard Chinese (MSC - 普通话). Same is true when 上 is functioning as a verbal complement.

上 is pronounced in its original 4th tone when acting as a physical location word, time location word, 'quality indicator' word，regular noun, or verb.

E.g.

Physical location: 上边

Time location: 上次, 上个星期

'Quality indicator': 上等

Regular noun: 上颚

Verb: 上山

Note: Historically 上 could also be pronounced in the 3rd tone when used as a verb. Although not correct usage in MSC, the third tone reading is still used in some dialects (and sometimes in MSC in the word for "third tone", 上声).

上 is pronounced in the neutral tone when acting as a physical location marker, ethereal location marker, scope defining word or verb complement.

E.g.

Physical location marker: 桌子上

Ethereal location marker: 思想上

Scope defining word: 课堂上

Verb complement: 写上, 赶得上

The "rules" above generally also apply to 下, although not completely: in the likes of 桌子下 either 4th tone or neutral tone is possible, while for the likes of 情况下 4th tone is normal. 下 also has other usages which differ from 上, but is pronounced in 4th tone (e.g. 等一下).

[vinegrower]

Also, I just got a message from my tutor, who consulted a professor of Chinese at her uni in Florida, and he said that if 上 is a suffix of a noun, then it gets no tone.

i agree with her.