Developing Fluency in Chinese outside of China

[opper567]

Has anyone here (or does anyone here know any person who has) become fully fluent in Chinese without ever spending time in China (or another Chinese-speaking country), being a native-heritage speaker, or living amongst Chinese speakers? By fluent I mean has the ability to read, write, listen and speak roughly the same as native speakers. Is it possible?

[muyongshi]

Everything is possible through a lot of hard work. I think it would take the average person about 3-5 times as much time and effort as if you were in the language environment. I don't know anyone that has done it but that doesn't mean it's not possible. My advice was if this is your desire to do this my advice would be to get as much input as you can. TV shows online, magazines online, going to Chinese communities in your area, finding native speakers to talk with.

[dsrguru]

It's certainly possible to be fluent without living in China if you grew up in a Mandarin-speaking household. I have several friends for whom that is the case. If you are not a native-heritage speaker (if so, I'm not sure why you included it in your question), it might still be possible. I hope it's possible because I'm trying to learn the language, and I don't live in China or Taiwan. I teach myself with freely available online materials (such as Chinese Learn Online and FSI), and I practice with native speaking friends and waiters at Chinese restaurants. As muyongshi said, try to immerse yourself in a Chinese environment. Take a movie that you've already seen in English, but watch it in Chinese (without English subtitles). Watch it over and over until you can follow the dialogue. Repeat with other movies. This way you learn and have fun at the same time.

[opper567]

This question does not apply to me. I live in a semi-Chinese community and I have visited China before. I just want to see if anyone has ever done it isolated from Chinese society and what they did to learn Chinese.

[self-taught-mba]

It's hard to say. Given that there are many foreigners have been here for a long time and still don't consider themselves fluent.

My advisor who has been here over 10 years and has a Ph.D. in the subject doesn't call himself completely fluent. (As a side note several Chinese have said he speaks Chinese better than Da Shan - although I'm sure he might deny this).

So the question is what is what is fluent to you? If it is the the high standard you just put it at that thenI think it's pretty hard for anybody to be completely fluent, and been outside of China will be even harder.

That said I got myself to a pretty decent conversational level before getting here. Unfortunately, since I been here haven't progressed too much because I'm very busy, so being here doesn't necessarily equate into proficiency either unless you work hard.

[LaVandez]

Most likely not. By this I mean that the person who could do this would have to go to such a high degree of extremes that it is highly unlikely. So again most likely not.

[renzhe]

I don't think that anyone can become fluent in any language without regular interaction with this language. The more interaction, the better.

Obviously, total immersion is the best. Just learning on your own from a book with zero interaction is the worst.

But it doesn't have to be this extreme. There are many things one can do that fall inbetween -- watch TV shows and movies in the given language, talk to a Chinese friend, chat on the internet in Chinese, read Chinese books, listen to podcasts, etc. All of these will benefit your fluency.

So the question is not whether you can become fluent without being immersed in Chinese culture. The question is how much Chinese language and culture you can expose yourself to regularly in order to become fluent. The more, the better.

[self-taught-mba]

Obviously, total immersion is the best.

Not at the beginning. You need to get the basics down first

[Alhazred]

I've become fluent in English without ever staying in an English-speaking country for more than two to three weeks in a row every now and then, so yes, that is definitely possible, though longer.

[self-taught-mba]

I've become fluent in English without ever staying in an English-speaking country for more than two to three weeks in a row

Two completely different animals and not what the thread is talking about here.

[renzhe]

Not at the beginning. You need to get the basics down first

Having structure helps, but there is no reason why you can't have structure WHILE you're being immersed.

Learning Chinese in a structured way in China > Learning Chinese in a structured way in Netherlands or Spain or South Africa.

[self-taught-mba]

Having structure helps, but there is no reason why you can't have structure WHILE you're being immersed.

Learning Chinese in a structured way in China > Learning Chinese in a structured way in Netherlands or Spain or South Africa.

What are you disagreeing with?

I was responding to his words.

He said "total immersion is the best"

Total means total in my mind.

[LaVandez]

I'm reading your original statement as highest degree of fluency claim. Native, fluid multi-context vocabulary integrated with cultural knowledge etc. That ain't happenin if you aint in the country. You can have lower levels of fluency and even be considered seriously good in a language without having spent alot of time in the language's native country however if you want that caveat free, no-excuse level within the language then you need to be there in the country. Other ways are too passive.

[renzhe]

I was responding to his words.

He said "total immersion is the best"

My words

By "total immersion", I meant living there and using the language wherever possible.

Not that there is no teaching. Teaching should be in the target language as much as possible too.

[anonymoose]

I think the other issue here is that one can become 'fluent' in daily conversational chinese, and then come across as native-like in such casual encounters, but would still struggle if, for example, taking an exam in some specialist field.

I must say that whilst I have met a few (fairly small number) of foreigners with good chinese, I have not met any that would qualify as 'fluent' in any sense of the word.

However, I did know a chinese guy in Dalian who had never even left the city, let alone spending any time in an English-speaking country. His English was the most 'native-like' of any Chinese person I've met not to have been abroad. His accent was practically faultless, and when I first met him, I assumed he had grown up in an English-speaking country. However, after knowing him for longer, it was still clear that beneath the surface, he didn't have the same depth of vocabulary or range of expression as a native speaker, even though he never actually had a problem expressing himself.

[so.many.words]

I am many klm from any Chinese speakers ...the best I can manage is talking to my dog and horse in mandarin ...my dog happens to be a chinese crested and has picked up heaps but his tones are still wrong ...my horse just looks at me in a pitying kind of way.

Around the house, my partner and two boys know a bit from my talking to them then translating ...and my partner in particular took up a year of study just to give me some where to bandy some words (she is pretty special).

A local chinese restaurant has no Chinese (that goes for the food as well, braised this and braised that, and blackbean this and blackbean that) and they hate it when I visit because I order in mandarin 1st and then translate.

In the early 90's I had close to 1800 characters and could read as well as a 2nd year Uni student, there were no Pleco's then and PCR was about the only workbook on offer. I visited China a number of times and on one trip squeezed into a class at Nanjing Normal for 8-weeks. I was always stronger on characters but after some weeks in China, the words would start to burst through ...my tones were right but awkward and so I would stammer a bit.

Then my businesses kicked-on and I had no time for study. I so regret this and can tell you that learning chinese is not like riding a bicycle, ...if you fall off it is really hard to get back on and somehow you bring your worst study habits with you.

The other difficulty is that you remain stiff and rigid in your vocabulary, small insights and elaborations are not available, forget classical chinese, and trying out idioms simply result in confusion. I think in reality I will always remain a beginner and I suspect that is how most of us end up.

I hope to come back to this thread in another 2-years, I have plans to be back where I was and better, my library is stacked with books, movies, software, newspapers and God Bless Mike Love and his Plecodict.

[floatingmoon]

I mentioned in another topic before:

There are websites, that give online tools for people in different areas (not necessary China) to arrange meetup for any purpose. I see there are quite a number of Mandarin meet group (for Mandarin learners), to practice Mandarin.

[LaoLiang]

Even after several years in China - being immersed in various variations of Mandarin - it's pretty obvious how my Mandarin "deteriorates" if i go abroad for just a couple of weeks. First the tones get modified following is a decline in vocabulary. I'd say it's impossible to become fluent abroad, unless you are one of the lucky few who were born with the natural ability to absorb or maintain languages as an adult. As for English, I agree it's comparing oranges to apples

[roddy]

I don't think you can say it's impossible. Theoretically you could create a very Chinese environment, quite possibly as Chinese as many of the people who study in China. What does seem likely is that it will be harder to get there and perhaps crucially, much tricker to stay there.

[LaoLiang]

"I don't think you can say it's impossible. Theoretically you could create a very Chinese environment, quite possibly as Chinese as many of the people who study in China"

Sure, you can also be a Chinese born to Chinese Parents in the USA and know how to speak Chinese well. Or confine your entire life to a room in China Town - I'm sure that was not the OP's question.

Again, I'd say impossible.