Language of Xian

[dsrguru]

The picture you give in #3 does show simplified characters, but #1 is just a bunch of question marks. But yes, you are correct that you cannot translate an English sentence into Chinese by just looking up the closest Chinese translation for each individual English word. As with any two languages, Chinese and English have different grammatical constructions, different phrases and idioms, etc.

[Jovey]

Somewhere along the line the characters must have lost their values(translation), sorry I pasted them from a dif. type of program.

Am I correct in saying that the Newspaper I am shown in previous post is read in the English manor, from left to right ? or does it by translation just appear that way ?

[dsrguru]

Yes, you are correct. That newspaper is read from left to right. That isn't always the case though. Chinese (especially traditional characters) is sometimes written from top to bottom. In fact, books in which the characters go from top to bottom are usually bound on the right side (so you open it like an Arabic or Hebrew book). When that's the case, the title on the front cover is read from right to left if it's written horizontally.

[imron]

What is the problem with doing that ?

The problem is that you think that #2 is an accurate translation of #1 and #3. It's not.

A better (but not necessarily great) translation would be along the lines of:

I only understand Chinese. Does this make you feel very dissappointed in me?

You're lucky that this was a simple sentence, and so the mistranslation is only small, but still enough to lead to misunderstandings.

You can try doing what you said, but it's likely that you'll end up having 2 different conversations where you think you're talking about one thing, and she'll think you're talking about something else. Go and read this page again, and see if this is something you really want to be doing.

[Jovey]

B]#1 我只知道中国人，我不要让你感到很失望？

#2 I only know Chinese, I do not let you feel very disappointed?[/b]

#3

Ok Lu, But before we sign off on this I have one last request.

The #1, Chinese Characters is translated into English #2, and also into Simplified characters # 3.

In this case, since it is a sentence written to me by her, is it not reasonable to assume that if I were to reply to this, I can use a English sentence like #2, translated into Chinese characters like #1 and then translated into simp. characters like # 3. What is the problem with doing that ? That is also, if I check the character for the proper definition and grammatical usage

Imron,

OK, I'm understanding pretty much what your saying, . .and I've seen that page before, . . but, I am not positive we are still clear on this,

She, Her in China wrote ;

I only know Chinese, I do not let you feel very disappointed?

I did not write that , but if I had, what I am asking regardless of what I write, . . as per her words, I put my English word(s), into the translation tool, and if using more than one translation tool, the English interprets it to be apx. the same English words having the intended meaning, then when someone in China reads those characters as they would translate these,(?), into Chinese, then the meaning as per the translation tool, stands to serve to convey that intended meaning, (the one that I double checked), correct ?

Again, I have seen this as I have construed English sentences and have translated them into Chinese Characters but when checking these

to re-translate them, into English, . . sometimes in a different translation tool, . .back into English it is not the sentence that I have written, . .OK, . . then I correct the sentence until it reads my intended meaning,

So, where does it now get screwed up, are you saying that the tools I use although there may be two of them have translated My Chinese characters, (?). . twice, . . to mean the same thing, so. I take those characters and convert them into Chines written characters, In using translation tools, I can not think of any way I can do more, after all the translation tools are useful and serve a purpose for those who do not speak or read Chinese, but if you double check your written work, then I do not see the problem ?

Ok, I think I see the problem, Chinese people interpret the words, differently than English speakers, then when they write them, . .as in the signs it is evident that they did not understand what was written by English into Chinese, But, that is the fault of the translation tool !!

BTW, where is the Quote button for previous post, etc. ?

[dsrguru]

Jovey, the problem is that automatic translation software doesn't work because certain words, idioms, and grammatical constructions differ depending upon context. Only humans can transcend the cross-language barrier because humans can understand contextual differences. For example, a human could translate a simple Chinese sentence like "Wǒ zuótiān chī shòusī le" into "I ate sushi yesterday." A computer couldn't do that because the particle "le" is used differently in different contexts. Here it indicates that the action ("chī" means "to eat") takes place in the past. A human would know to interpret it that way because "zuótiān" means "yesterday", implying that the eating had to take place in the past. A computer would have no way of knowing that because it can't think and therefore can't understand context. You can't program the software to treat "le" as a past-tense particle all the time because sometimes it's used to indicate emphasis (e.g. "Tài guì le" - "[it's] too expensive") or a change in state. Even if you tried to program the software to treat "le" as a past-tense particle in certain specific circumstances like when the word "zuótiān" ("yesterday") appears earlier in the sentence, the program would have no way of correctly translating a sentence that didn't have the specific word "zuótiān." For example, it would have no way of knowing that the "le" in the sentence "Wǒ qùnián chī shòusī le" ("I ate sushi last year") indicates past-tense rather than emphasis or change of state. If a computer can't translate such a basic sentence, there is no way that it could translate normal, more complicated sentences. These examples dealt with converting from Chinese to English, but the same kinds of contextual problems also occur when going from English to Chinese.

To make a long story short, proper translation relies upon understanding context. Computers can't think, so they can't understand context. Therefore, computers can't really translate between English and Chinese.

BTW, where is the Quote button for previous post, etc. ?

There doesn't seem to be a quote button on this forum. You can use the [noparse]

and

tags instead. For example, I quoted you by typing

BTW, where is the Quote button for previous post, etc. ?

[/noparse]

[Jovey]

dsrguru,

You are a, kind, generous and thoughtful, patient teacher !, My compliments and gratitude !

I now see more clearly what I should have known clearly !

Yes, I see the speech context word meaning translation factor, a bit more significantly. and understand how for example, . .

something like the following can occur;

New York Times =

Up and Coming York O'Clock

I continue and wish for you much benefit from your kindness.

Jovey

[dsrguru]

dsrguru,You are a, kind, generous and thoughtful, patient teacher !, My compliments and gratitude !

Thank you very much. I don't get compliments like that very often.

something like the following can occur;

New York Times =

Up and Coming York O'Clock

Exactly.

[imron]

There doesn't seem to be a quote button on this forum.

It's the button on the 'reply to thread' toolbar that looks like this . Explanations are here and here.

[Lu]

B]#1 我只知道中国人，我不要让你感到很失望？

#2 I only know Chinese, I do not let you feel very disappointed?[/b]

#3[picture]

She says: Wo zhi zhidao Zhongguoren, meaning: I only know Chinese [people].

You read: I only know Chinese. Language or people, you don't know.

The machine translates: Wo zhi dongde Hanyu, meaning: I only understand Chinese [language].

Such a simple sentence, and already it's going wrong.

[imron]

She says: Wo zhi zhidao Zhongguoren

Heh, I didn't even notice this before. Jovey's earlier post only had question marks for #1, and so my translation was from the picture in #3. But then his later post includes the actual Chinese for #1 which is clearly different from #3.

And this is the perfect example of how if you communicate like this, you'll end up having 2 completely separate conversations where you're talking about one thing, and she's talking about something else.

[Jovey]

Imron,

Interesting enough I have my doubts that she can read romanticized

words such as; Wo zhi zhidao Zhongguoren !

However,

Was it you who gave me that Chinese newspaper ?

please tell me concerning that newspaper, Xi'am Ribao,

Is this updated as a daily newspaper ? If so where do I find the date ?

[Jovey]

Maybe I should have started another thread, . . but, here is an interesting example of the subtleties that can cause a bit of chaos in translation !

Of course this is an example of the use of an on-line translator.

Anyone have any comments or possible explanations regarding the input of an additional dash, effecting the translation of this text above ?

[imron]

I have my doubts that she can read romanticized

words such as; Wo zhi zhidao Zhongguoren !

Well, to be honest, I have my doubts that she understands what you're talking about.

Between errors introducted by translation software, plus the way you've been describing things (calligraphic characters, romanticized instead of romanized, etc), it's not suprising if she's somewhat confused.

If she is

Anyway, yes it was me who posted the link to the newspaper. I guess it's updated daily, I just found it through a google search. It doesn't appear to have the date on it though.

I've no idea why the translation would introduce the dashes -. However, I have a feeling it would be a lot easier to communicate with this person if you installed Chinese fonts on your machine.

Either that, or copy and paste the original ?????s here (which will appear as Chinese characters for us), and we can let you know why it got translated like that.

[Jovey]

When I write in the translation language, she understands every

word I write.

As I am fairly new at this I would hope that a few simple mistakes like spelling romanized, might be forgiven, and I have always thought that calligraphic is descriptive of the use of a pen. I see much of the time that characters are herein described as question marks, so when characters are mentioned I can't tell if they are talking about question marks or scrolled characters.

I can't figure out exactly what the problem is, who knows, I've been paying for all the mail I send her to be translated and it has been getting expensive, and is one of the reason I want to get around the translation fees, I am beginning to wonder. if I am being scammed ! ? !

Hey, give me a break will ya, ?

Actually from what I read she should have learned some English by now !

What the heck is the forum for anyway ?

You guys are acting like it's a pain !

Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

很---象储款--为小棍子会集了

--- Reserve, as is - will gather in a small stick

很--象储款--为小棍子会集了

Very - as certificates of - will gather in a small stick

[imron]

As I am fairly new at this I would hope that a few simple mistakes like spelling romanized, might be forgiven,

You misunderstand me. My point was that if you are typing phrases like that into a translation program, then they will be translated too. When you write 'calligraphic characters' it will translate that and give the person the impression you aren't talking about ordinary Chinese characters (hence the reason they might say they don't understand them, because some calligraphic characters can be difficult to read). Likewise, if you were to ask her via the translation program if she can read "romanticized characters" then the translation program will not realise that it was a typo, but instead happily translate it, which of course will lead to her wondering what you are talking about, and possibly replying with an answer to a question that you didn't actually ask.

[dsrguru]

As I am fairly new at this I would hope that a few simple mistakes like spelling romanized, might be forgiven, and I have always thought that calligraphic is descriptive of the use of a pen. I see much of the time that characters are herein described as question marks, so when characters are mentioned I can't tell if they are talking about question marks or scrolled characters.

imron wasn't saying that to criticize you. He was explaining that some of your friend's confusion might stem from incorrect wording.

I can't figure out exactly what the problem is, who knows, I've been paying for all the mail I send her to be translated and it has been getting expensive, and is one of the reason I want to get around the translation fees, I am beginning to wonder. if I am being scammed ! ? !

Wait a second. Are you using a paid human translation service? I think we were all under the assumption that you were using a computer to translate. If a human was translating, that makes more sense why she understood. By the way, I second imron's suggestion that you should install Chinese language support on your computer. The whole question mark thing only adds to both your and our confusion.

[Jovey]

OK, sorry, I forgive, . .

Now let me try to make this clear, . .

I send here letters, these letters first get translated by a human service,

I pay for that service.

She sends me letters in simplified symbols, and I translate them myself.

I on occasion write her letters in characters because I can send her a scrsht, of the letter and this saves the translation fee, since I am not allowed to send her English letters unless I am a member, I have so far found it impossible to get through the e-golds thing, which is required to become a member.

Thus, she receives either Chinese that have been translated or Chinese, characters I have written to her, or a translated form of the English letter I send translated by the human service. Kapeesh !

BTW----I have another computer here and I have I have started typing characters with East Asian Language Support Under Windows XP,

but I must say I don't know what I am doing, would it help to post this in a new topic to ask for help, . . lately the characters I have been sending her seem to be legible and understandable, by her, as I think I am getting a slight feel for the Chinese language and am taking these characters from translation dictionaries and translation tools, anyway it is beginning to work, but is OK but it is not private since you must choose to do word by word or complete sentences to me it feels quite public.

But, if I can get this software to print out the write in-put I can send her letters via, the postal system,

Do you think that I can get some help, are there some experts in this forum on this sobject, Using this language service, Windows XP, etc. ?

[imron]

I am not allowed to send her English letters unless I am a member,

I can send her letters via, the postal system,

You'll have to forgive me because I'm not entirely clear, but if you can send her letters via the postal system, what's to stop you sending her English letters that way? And if you both want to write to each other, is there some reason you can't just ask her for her email address and communicate directly without going through whatever service it is you are are using?

[Jovey]

I can send her via postal but I would not want to send her a letter in English that way because, she would have no way of translating it, however. if I sent, letters to her via the membership in English,

then she could, if she knows how, and I don't know why she wouldn't,

she could translate it using internet or computer tools.

Yeah, I'm pretty confused myself about this whole thing, . . this service will only let you send letter without translation if you are a member, or I mean buy a membership, although you are allowed to pay the translation service, she on the other hand is telling me that she has a computer communication problem with e-mail.

Yeah, I might be being scammed. That's a little embarrassing if it turns out that way. Shame on me.

This whole darn thing is getting to me about now.

I posted an inquiry at ; Russian Detectives

http://russiandetective.forumup.org/index.php?mforum=russiandetective

Agencies

Discuss your experiences

Under; Agencies

my UN= Jp

This isn't, . .

really that funny ! But what a ________ I am turning out to be !

S- H- Institue of Technology @??!!@#

I think I am getting SKREWED !! !!@@?*7!

I thought I asked you guys about this in another forum post ?

Are you guys reading the posts ??