而 vs 二， are they same in pronuciation except the tone?

[monto]

而 vs 二， not to consider their meanings, just for pronuciation only , do you think they sound the same except that they differ in tone?

I wish this poll be limited for Non-native speakers of Chinese only because the purpose of the poll is to compare the yes/no ratio by foreigners to that by Native Chinese.

[lokki]

I voted no.

Firstly, I don't think you can separate tone from pronunciation. The tone is part of the pronunciation in Mandarin.

And secondly, the tone will affect the actual phonemes slightly, so if we don't consider the tones they are very close but not exactly the same.

[adrianlondon]

the tone will affect the actual phonemes slightly

I never thought of that. I was going to vote "yes" until I read that, then said them both aloud, and am now going to vote "no". I'm so easily swayed ;)

[dsrguru]

I think my fourth tone 二 sounds like a retroflex "are" while my second tone 而 and 兒 sound more like a retroflex version of the "er" in "her".

[LaoZhang]

I don't think they're the same, but how about a third choice for "depends."

I feel difference will be more pronounced (no pun intended) in the north, tho.

[muyongshi]

Tough choice....

the tone will affect the actual phonemes slightly

I agree but I guess it depends on how you look at it...One still might say they are the same...another might say they are different due to above reason or simply because the tone is different....

However I don't think somebody should vote no based on the tone difference...it's not what the OP is attempting to get at...

[SWWLiu]

I voted "no" -- I saw your note about non-native speakers only afterwards ...

My reason for the difference is that I believe that, tones aside, 而 ("er") is always pronounced with a retroflex "r" (i.e., "rhotacized"), while there are occasions when 二 will have to make do with something closer to plain "e".

At present I am hard-pressed to find support for such an example. Could someone else help by constructing examples?

[roddy]

This may be enlightening.

用普通话的四个声调连续来发er, 就会发现“ 二”的实际发音的确与ēr、ér、ěr的发音有点儿不同，要比阴平、阳平、上声的er发音时开口度大些，实际发音是àr。既然实际发音不是èr而是àr . . .

Say er[/i'] using the four tones in succession, and you'll find that 二 is a bit different from ēr,ér,ěr. The mouth is more open than with the first, second and third tones and the actual pronunciation is àr. So, if the pronunciation is not èr but àr . . .

[monto]

SWWLiu:

...while there are occasions when 二 will have to make do with something closer to plain "e".

At present I am hard-pressed to find support for such an example....

I doubt that there would be such an example in Putonghua.

However, I've met many people from Anhui Province who pronounce “二” as "a4" (pinyin) . So, I think it possible that in some place there “二” sounds "e".

[dsrguru]

Say er using the four tones in succession, and you'll find that 二 is a bit different from ēr,ér,ěr. The mouth is more open than with the first, second and third tones and the actual pronunciation is àr. So, if the pronunciation is not èr but àr

I think my fourth tone 二 sounds like a retroflex "are" while my second tone 而 and 兒 sound more like a retroflex version of the "er" in "her".

Beat you to it, Roddy. And as your translation of that article indicates, ēr and ěr are pronounced like ér, not counting the difference in tone.

[roddy]

Nah, you just gave an anecdotal report, I referenced an academic work

But anyway, that's certainly the difference I have. Don't think I've ever seen it pointed out in textbooks.

[dsrguru]

Nah, personal anecdotes are much more authoritative than these newfangled academic works you speak of.

I'm pretty sure I have seen that mentioned somewhere before because there is no way I would have learned to pronounce er correctly just be hearing a bunch of audio clips. Although come to think of it, the difference with the fourth tone is clear if you listen to the pronunciation on ChinesePod's Pinyin chart app. I don't like their podcast course (if you can call it a "course" even though it's not progressive like Chinese Learn Online), but their resources are helpful. I'm glad I downloaded that Pinyin chart back when I had a free trial ...

[tooironic]

I've also wondered this before, as I've heard both "ER" (like "err...what?") and "ARRRH" (like "ARH me hearties").

I would say it truly depends on the individual and his/her own unbringing/accent/native dialect/etc.

As to whether one is technically more correct than the other, I'm not sure. But I don't think it matters all that much. Yes, yes, I know we're all meant to be speaking the strictest form of 'PROPER PUTONGHUA', but in terms of just talking to people in everyday life, I hardly think the difference matters, no?

[roddy]

Asked a Chinese-teaching friend:

恩，二的时候嘴是比较大，但作为老外，你完全不用管

...

就当好老外就行了

...

确实有点像A ER

...

南方人喜欢说ER,北方人都说A ER

...

The article I link puts it down to the effect of the tone, but I'm not convinced as it also talks about the shape of the mouth changing. Wandering around my kitchen talking out loud I feel as if saying 'er' for 二 sounds odd, but saying 'ar' or 'er' for 而 or 尔 sounds plausible.

[skylee]

This subject has been discussed before but I couldn't find the thread.

[monto]

skylee:

This subject has been discussed before but I couldn't find the thread.

Do you remember the rough ratio of the Yes's over the No's.

It is roughly 4:5 in my poll by now.

[ChevanY]

What I have to say is not based on anything I've read or talked about, just what I've noticed in and my experiences so maybe it's a little biased in the sense that two people sometimes disagree on exactly what they hear.

I think it partly depends on where in China the speaker is from, my teachers here in Beijing (one from far north of Harbin and one from Beijing) pronounce 二 with quite a strong "are/ARR" sound. I also noticed in Harbin that the sound was "are" although not as strong on the R. Whereas some friends I made from Jiang Xi (more south central china) had a bit more of an "er", but still not to like when they said 而且. Everyone I have met in China says this 而 almost exactly the same like "er" you are taught at the start when learning to pronounce pinyin. You can really see the difference in students who have learnt outside China and mostly by themselves or without constantly referring to audio material as they will often say err when the say 二. Whereas students who started learning in China through conversation and audio material usually say more of an "are".

It's a coincidence that just in the past few weeks I'd begun noticing and listening to this difference and low and behold a post pops up about it!

Oh yeh and my vote is no a bit different.

[here2learn]

I've noticed, before reading this thread, that 二 and 儿 as in "儿子“ were different. I always heard/thought 二 was more like "ar" and 儿子 was more like "er". But then I thought maybe it was just different people's particular pronunciation, I never thought there was a rule or usual habit about it.

Thanks for this thread, it's interesting.

[foodtarget]

I'm too lazy to quote, but there were a couple points that I wanted to comment on.

First, the affect of tone on pronunciation. As far as I know, tone is just a matter of varying pitch, and pitch is controlled by vibration of the vocal cords. I therefore can't see how pitch would influence the shape and placement of the tongue, which is what determines pronunciation. But I've only had intro to linguistics, so if whoever said tone affects pronunciation is a reputable phonetician, my apologies.

Second, someone asked if any Chinese speakers pronounce 二 as "e". I am studying in the deep south, where Minnanhua is widely spoken, and apparently the Minnan people tend to pronounce it as "e". In Minnanhua, the tongue stays relatively flat, so a lot of native speakers of Minnanhua have trouble with sounds that require curling the tongue, such as "r" and words with "h". So for example, someone with a heavy Minnan accent would read the sentence 十二个人吃肉 as "si e ge len ci lou". It was really confusing when I first got here, but I guess I'm used to it now.

Anyway, back to the main question of 而 and 二, when I try to say them, they sound about the same to me, but then again that could be because I am saying it carefully and it is not part of normal speech. The pinyin pronunciations on mandarintools.com seem to pronounce 而 like "are" and 二 like "er", which is the opposite of what someone said previously. So I think that, ideally, they should be pronounced the same, but some speakers may pronounce one or the other with more of an "are" sound.

On a semi-related note, I was with a mixture of foreign and Chinese friends the other day, and I mentioned that we foreigners sometimes joke that Beijingers sound like pirates, and then I said "errrrrrr" and made a little hook with my index finger. The foreigners thought it was hilarious, but the Chinese people said "Why did you say two and then make the hand sign for nine?" hahaha. I guess some things are just to culturally specific to be understood, because even after we explained the pirate stereotype to them, the Chinese friends just looked at us foreigners like we were insane.

[tooironic]

I mentioned that we foreigners sometimes joke that Beijingers sound like pirates, and then I said "errrrrrr" and made a little hook with my index finger. The foreigners thought it was hilarious, but the Chinese people said "Why did you say two and then make the hand sign for nine?"

hahahhahaha omg

you just made my day!