The story of my life

[mixed_girl]

Hi everyone,

I wrote a little bit about myself in another post, but I decided to write a little bit more about myself to let some steam off and I want to hear your opinions.

I am a 23 years-old woman who graduated from college approximately one and a half year ago. I am a Spanish native speaker as my parents moved from China when they got married to a Spanish speaking country. We later moved to the United States. Currently, my fluent languages are Spanish and English. I never got to learn my parents' languages properly and they never bother to learn English and Spanish either. As family, we have a difficult time in communicating with each other. A lot of time we don't discuss thing because we don't understand or get misunderstood and most importantly of all, we as children have acquired different ways of thinking and values of life from that of our families.

I met my first boyfriend who later became my fiance on my senior year of college. He is a 28 years-old Hispanic guy, but grew up in the United States. I met his family in the summer and all of them were really nice to me. We got engaged a month ago. We have known each other for more than two years. We have been dating for two years and we are very happy with each other.

My problem began when I announced my engagement to my mother (My father doesn't know anything about this since he works outside of the state and I never had a close relationship with him). My mother reacted in a very negative way toward my engagement and blamed me for many things: that I don't have a career, that guys like him will leave you after they get what they want, that it is immoral and it is a lack of respect to get married when my grandparents (my mom's parents) have died recently (grandma passed away almost 10 months ago and grandpa died two years ago); and that she feels betrayed because she thought that we weren't going to get married (she thought that it was a youth thing that I was going to get over soon). She also said that she doesn't want me to get married because she went to a fortune teller guy that said to her that if I get married before my 29 years-old, I will more likely have married twice ( I don't know what to think and I certainly not going to make a life decision based on this guy's opinion). I remember her asking me if I would married him, and I answered at that point that I didn't know and that I would like to enjoy my relationship and I said that because I never thought that my fiance was going to ask me to married him soon. I have decided to wait my plans of getting married since then as I wanted to give her time to accept the situation slowly as in my heart, I want her presence to be in my wedding since she has been a mom and a father figure to me in my life and it is hard not to have her with me on the most important day of my life. I also wanted to give her time because I wasn't sure if it is was a cultural thing to talk about marriage one year after a death in the family ( I am still not sure about this because I don't know if it is just an excuse she is making). About three months ago, a young cousin of mine have died. I don't know how because noone wants to talk.

My fiance and I have waiting for a couple of months and we are gonna get married one year since he proposed. I have been trying to find a moment to speak to her again, but somehow I fear that when I do, I will get tongue-tied and that I will get blackmailed emotionally. My speaking abilities are not strong as I would like to and I know that I will appear as a child trying to speak. Her way of dictating rules to my life will make me even more look like a child.

This whole ordeal hasn't been easy for me and my fiance. I have suffered many emotional breakdowns and I feel like my mental health is deteriorating bit by bit. I am at the point where I can't handle it anymore and that I need to speak to her. I am trying to figure out if I should write a letter and have someone to translate it for me so I can handle it to her or I should speak to her in the best way that I can. All I know right now is that I have found the one in my life and that I want to spend my life with him. I don't want to live in a life that is full of regrets.

Any comments and opinions will be appreciated.

-Mixed_girl

[monto]

If you were my daughter, I would ask you to

1)Make your mind firm

Do you really love him? Is he truely loveworthy?

Does he really love you? Does he think you truely loveworthy?

Is marriage the determined goal for both of you?

Ask these questions to your mind, and get confirmed without any hesitation. then

2) Try to persuade me or to make me believe that you have a firm mind on the matter.

Your mom seems mostly to worry that your marriage would not last long. The worry is well supported from the views of Chinese Tradition on the Western people generally.

It had been a common view, now with a small changes, that the Westerners are less serious on matters related to sex, marriage and family.

What I would ask might helps to settle the worry someway.

And I am wondering,

everyone thought of "to be blackmailed emotionally",

Why nobody think of "to blackmail emotionally" themselves?

Don't you think it is a tactic or skill?

So much of my opinion,

Good Luck

[gato]

You said that your dad works and lives long-term away from the family. That's probably difficult for your mom. It sounds that your mom's emotionally pretty frazzled and is just reacting instead of thinking about what's the best for you. Maybe there are issues you needs to work out, too. All these deaths in the family might be making her superstitious. It'd best to de-escalate the tension. Sometimes it's best to not talk about something instead of arguing and getting overly emotionally. Your idea of writing a letter is good, too, because it would let you discuss the situation with her in a calm way.

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/2-favourite-chinese-musician2666

My Chinese fiance will choose his parents over me

I am trying to figure out if I should write a letter and have someone to translate it for me so I can handle it to her or I should speak to her in the best way that I can.

You can try to google translate. Here's your post above translated by google into Chinese. The translation has mistakes and is awkward, but it gets the point across for the most part.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chinese-forums.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D22683&langpair=en%7Czh-CN&hl=en&ie=UTF8

[Woodpecker]

Hooray, a Chinese girl complaining about their parent's attitude to marrying a Westerner!

1. You say you haven't told your father because you don't have a close relationship with him, but surely he has a close one with your mother? You could discuss the matter with him.

2. Do you have any brothers or sisters? If not, she may be banking on having Chinese grandchildren and doesn't want anybody polluting the blood line. In any case, you should talk to her somehow. Try and find out what her insecurities about the marriage really are. There have to be better ways for Chinese parents to express their disapproval than emotionally blackmailing the children involved.

[mixed_girl]

Your mom seems mostly to worry that your marriage would not last long. The worry is well supported from the views of Chinese Tradition on the Western people generally.

It had been a common view, now with a small changes, that the Westerners are less serious on matters related to sex, marriage and family.

It is so unbelievable to me that at this century, there are still people who let themselves believe stereotypes. The smartest thing here is to get to know these people before judging. Noone in my family has ever had a divorce as stated in a legal paper, but they sure have dysfunctional relationships which I don't even consider them as healthy relationships and they are all Chinese with Chinese. They are synonyms of subtle divorces. How can my family be sure that I would have a long and HAPPY marriage with a Chinese guy? I consider myself very stubborn, but my mom is even more stubborn than I am. Convincing her now is an impossible task. I guess time will convince her.

You can try to google translate. Here's your post above translated by google into Chinese. The translation has mistakes and is awkward, but it gets the point across for the most part.

http://translate.google.com/translat...&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Yeah, I thought about her writing a letter and go to one of those sites that do translation. I am aware that they are not really perfect, and sometimes there are mistakes with their translation. I guess I am thinking of going to a translation agency and have professionals to take care of it. That way, there is no misunderstanding.

1. You say you haven't told your father because you don't have a close relationship with him, but surely he has a close one with your mother? You could discuss the matter with him.

2. Do you have any brothers or sisters? If not, she may be banking on having Chinese grandchildren and doesn't want anybody polluting the blood line. In any case, you should talk to her somehow. Try and find out what her insecurities about the marriage really are. There have to be better ways for Chinese parents to express their disapproval than emotionally blackmailing the children involved.

Well, my father and my mother have a very unhealthy relationship with each other. Let's say that the only reason of they are still staying together is because of the children. Nothing more than that. Despite of this, I am going to try to discuss this matter with him. I guess I don't expectations from him, since he is known to be a macho and a littel bit racist too. I'll try. I will be surprised if he actually supports my decision at least ONCE in my life. I do have two younger brother. The thing about polluting the blood line is a joke to me because my mom is also a mixed product. Her great grandma was from a Spanish country, but she died very young and the whole family never took adopted any tradition from her culture. Despite of this, it doesn't take away that she has some mixed blood. Thats a fact, not a wish.

[jessie520]

how to say,as a chinese,i think your mother hadn't forgot our chinese tradition even though she left China for a long time.So many miserable things happened,it made her so depressed and sad.Maybe she was thinking it's a wrong chance to leave China,cause she didn't look after her parents.As a daughter,live in another country,far away from her parents,it's a way to hurt each other.And the relation gap occurred as time goes by.

mixed girl,you said the only reason of your parents are still staying together is because of the children.it's still a tradition show.it's still the another reason caused your mother so care about your marriage.and she considered it's not safety to marry with a western guy.but you are right,how could your mother so convince you will be happy forever with a chinese guy?

i know what your mother care about is see her children can be happy,then she will happy.what's in her minds is the chinese guys are so good than western guys,cause they are traditional and very responsible.but here the divorce rate is rising up more years by years.so,she should support you and respect your chance.Happiness is yours,but you still hope you can get the agreement from your parents.it shows you are a good daughter.

so,the good way for you to work this complicated thing out is the good communication with your parents,but please don't argue with them.i think everything will be fine.

i am so curious about one thing,why don't your mother teach you mandarin when you was a child?does she can speak spanish or english for a little?

anyway,if you believe me,i can help you translate your mail.

[mixed_girl]

i am so curious about one thing,why don't your mother teach you mandarin when you was a child?does she can speak spanish or english for a little?

anyway,if you believe me,i can help you translate your mail.

Mom has always spoke Cantonese to me and my bros since when we were babies. In fact, my first language was Cantonese. It justs that as time passed by, the language skill becomes forgotten especially when all the schools we went to, only Spanish was spoken. There are no schools in the Spanish speaking country that I grew up with that teaches Chinese at all. Mom has learn a few Spanish, but when we came to the USA almost a decade ago, she has forgot her Spanish as well. She doesn't speak English at all because she gave up on it. She always said that her mind is not as efficient as it used to be. Unfortunately, our communication dynamic is very complicated.

Thanks for offering translation help. I will keep it in my mind.

[gato]

Well, my father and my mother have a very unhealthy relationship with each other. Let's say that the only reason of they are still staying together is because of the children. Nothing more than that. Despite of this, I am going to try to discuss this matter with him.

I suspected that was the case. I wouldn't hold out too much hope that talking to your dad would help since both you and your mom have a poor relationship with him. The best thing might be to just wait it out for another year or so. In that time, you and your boyfriend can confirm for yourself that you are right for each other and your mom will hopefully come to terms with your decision. In another year, if you are still sure that this is the right guy and your mom hasn't come around, then you'll just have to do what you feel is best. It's your life. Waiting will help you make sure that you are doing the right thing and give your mom a chance.

[mixed_girl]

I suspected that was the case. I wouldn't hold out too much hope that talking to your dad would help since both you and your mom have a poor relationship with him. The best thing might be to just wait it out for another year or so. In that time, you and your boyfriend can confirm for yourself that you are right for each other and your mom will hopefully come to terms with your decision. In another year, if you are still sure that this is the right guy and your mom hasn't come around, then you'll just have to do what you feel is best. It's your life. Waiting will help you make sure that you are doing the right thing and give your mom a chance.

I don't think that I will be able to wait another year. I will be going to gradschool in a couple of months and I will like to be married before then. I will like to have my partner to be with me since we are going to be busy with our careers for the next couple of years and we can help each other; I am one of those girls who don't agree with living with their loves ones without getting married. We have been dating together for more than 2 years and my fiance and I strongly believe that we are right for each other. I believe if I wait, she is going to take advantage to make more excuses so I can wait and wait. Something in my heart tells me that if I don't assert myself right now, I am never going to be able to do it at all.

[gato]

I will be going to gradschool in a couple of months and I will like to be married before then.

Grad school doesn't start until September, right? Maybe wait a few more months?

I believe if I wait, she is going to take advantage to make more excuses so I can wait and wait.

Like I said before, try to de-escalate the tension. Don't treat your mom like an opponent to be overcome. I think she has issues (many immigrants do). And many Asian-Americans kids have issues with their parents. It's because of culture clash and other things that more complicated -- a wish to control one's own family when one hasn't so much control in the outside world, for one. Try to be more sympathetic to her problems. That way, you might be able to avoid some of the potential confrontations instead creating them. In dealing with parents, sometimes glossing over problems and detente might be better than open confrontations.

[mixed_girl]

Grad school doesn't start until September, right? Maybe wait a few more months?

Actually, grad school starts in the mid of August. I got engaged in August of 2007 and I am planning to get married in the first week of August 2008. A year would have passed since the engagement proposal. I could have gotten married early, but I chose a year to pass since the engagement because I was and am hoping that mom would come around for me. I highly doubt it though after the last conversation we had, but I am still waiting and will be waiting.

Like I said before, try to de-escalate the tension. Don't treat your mom like an opponent to be overcome. I think she has issues (many immigrants do). And many Asian-Americans kids have issues with their parents. It's because of culture clash and other things that more complicated -- a wish to control one's own family when one hasn't so much control in the outside world, for one. Try to be more sympathetic to her problems. That way, you might be able to avoid some of the potential confrontations instead creating them. In dealing with parents, sometimes glossing over problems and detente might be better than open confrontations.

I agree with you. I don't like confrontations either. She has been adamant in talking about my engagement since last year and she still doesn't want to talk about it. She always said, "Now, it isn't a good time". She basically screamed at me on the day that I got engaged to not to wear my engagement ring, which broke my heart. I haven't wear it since because I want to work things out with her. I will be wearing it again when I get married; that way I know that I have tried everything to work things out with her. Last conversation I have with her after months of not talking to each other, I was able to maintain composure (I still don't know how I did it because my mental health has deteriorated a lot). I asked her what she feared and I tried to reason her in a calm way. However, her belief in superstitions are far more powerful than I thought. She told me not to call her mother anymore if I don't follow her advice, which to me are superstitions. On one hand, I understand her, but on the other hand, I thought I was going to see improvement from her since a couple of months have passed already. Her list of not marrying my fiance keeps expanding

[studentyoung]

She basically screamed at me on the day that I got engaged to not to wear my engagement ring, which broke my heart. I haven't wear it since because I want to work things out with her. I will be wearing it again when I get married; that way I know that I have tried everything to work things out with her. Last conversation I have with her after months of not talking to each other, I was able to maintain composure (I still don't know how I did it because my mental health has deteriorated a lot). I asked her what she feared and I tried to reason her in a calm way. However, her belief in superstitions are far more powerful than I thought. She told me not to call her mother anymore if I don't follow her advice, which to me are superstitions.

Well, at first, I hope you don’t mind my words. Hmm... I think maybe your mother needs a psychotherapist. Can you find one who can speak Cantonese in your area for your mother?

Cheers!

[wannabeafreak]

Mom has always spoke Cantonese to me and my bros since when we were babies. In fact, my first language was Cantonese. It justs that as time passed by, the language skill becomes forgotten especially when all the schools we went to, only Spanish was spoken. There are no schools in the Spanish speaking country that I grew up with that teaches Chinese at all. Mom has learn a few Spanish, but when we came to the USA almost a decade ago, she has forgot her Spanish as well. She doesn't speak English at all because she gave up on it. She always said that her mind is not as efficient as it used to be. Unfortunately, our communication dynamic is very complicated.

So you come home from school and don't speak to your mum ever? How can you forget to speak Cantonese? You should be able to maintain fluency in Cantonese unless you are introverted.

The only time I've seen problems is when I see some Hong Kong parents speak to their kids in English ONLY (to give their kids some sort of so-called advantage), the parents English is intermediate and the kids go to English International school. Eventually, the kids can speak English fluently, parents still speak basic English and eventually no one can communicate in anything meaningful since the kids can't speak Cantonese and parents can't understand more than intermediate English.

[Lu]

I'm not sure if this would be any help at all, since the problems seem to run rather deep, but perhaps you & your mother could go to a temple or priest of whatever faith she believes in, and try to solve the superstition issues? Ask for a blessing of the relevant god, burn some ghost money, pick a lucky date for a wedding, pick a Chinese name for your fiance that fits with yours, or whatever seems appropriate to her and might bring you luck.

[mixed_girl]

Well, at first, I hope you don’t mind my words. Hmm... I think maybe your mother needs a psychotherapist. Can you find one who can speak Cantonese in your area for your mother?

Uffff...if my mother could hear you, she will give you the evil eye. I agree that seeing a psychotherapist would help, but I believe that there is a stereotype in my family about that sort of thing. They believe only crazy people would resort to that situation. Even if I found one, she is not going to go at all. Thanks for the suggestion though.

So you come home from school and don't speak to your mum ever? How can you forget to speak Cantonese? You should be able to maintain fluency in Cantonese unless you are introverted.

Well...you see..growing up in a Spanish country, everyone spoke Spanish to me except for my mother and it was like that for more than a decade. My mother was the only person who spoke Cantonese to us. But, sometimes I couldn't understand her at all because I didn't know what she meant. She didn't know how to say it in Spanish either. Therefore, time has passed and now you see this strange dynamic of communication in my family because things never change and hasn't improved at all. Now that I am in the United States, I thought that my Cantonese skills would have returned (it helps a lot to listen to people to speak Chinese especially if they speak English for translation), but it didn't. The reason is because I don't have Chinese friends. Most of them look at me and said that I don't look Chinese at all and have no reason to talk to me in Chinese. When I clarified to them that I can try to speak Chinese, they don't care to talk to me at all. I gave up on this long time ago and I don't bother anymore.

I'm not sure if this would be any help at all, since the problems seem to run rather deep, but perhaps you & your mother could go to a temple or priest of whatever faith she believes in, and try to solve the superstition issues? Ask for a blessing of the relevant god, burn some ghost money, pick a lucky date for a wedding, pick a Chinese name for your fiance that fits with yours, or whatever seems appropriate to her and might bring you luck.

I do believe that I am a situation where there are very deep issues to be worked on. From me, I would have immediately accepted to go to the temple or anywhere to work things out except that I have a time constrant issue as I am going to be initiating important projects in my life pretty soon. I believe very much so that she views me still as a child who doesn't know what she wants. Doing all of those things would reinforce even more her view of me as a child. Regardless, I wish I can know her faith, so that way I can do those things by myself even though I know that she wouldn't want to do it with me . At least, I have tried

[gato]

I agree that seeing a psychotherapist would help, but I believe that there is a stereotype in my family about that sort of thing. They believe only crazy people would resort to that situation. Even if I found one, she is not going to go at all.

There are therapists who specialize in family counseling. If you can find one who speaks Cantonese, you can go together with your mom.

Here's one, for example. But she's in Idaho.

http://www.counsel-search.com/marriage-family-counselors/boise/profile/4789.htm

Boise, ID Marriage & Family Counselor

Dr. Judy Lam

[studentyoung]

Uffff...if my mother could hear you, she will give you the evil eye. I agree that seeing a psychotherapist would help, but I believe that there is a stereotype in my family about that sort of thing. They believe only crazy people would resort to that situation. Even if I found one, she is not going to go at all. Thanks for the suggestion though.

OK, I see that a psychotherapist might be too provocative to your mom. Hmm…In your area, can you find some female relative who is at the similar age with your mom and can speak Cantonese? If you can’t, your friend’s or classmate’s mother can do, as long as she is trustworthy and can communicate in Cantonese and English. I think the most important thing in your case is that you should find someone who can help you communicate with your mom. I’m sure your mom feels frustrated because she can’t communicate with you and others.

At least, I have tried

Cheer up, cheer up!

Cheers!

[Lu]

I believe very much so that she views me still as a child who doesn't know what she wants. Doing all of those things would reinforce even more her view of me as a child.

If your mother is an old-fashioned traditional Chinese parent, chances are she will never stop seeing you as a child. Trying to change that might be to high an aim. In my view the best you could hope for, especially seeing that time seems to run short, is that she doesn't object too much to your fiance, and doesn't throw you out of the family for marrying him.

I'm not sure how to help you, but I wish you the best of luck, and hope you can work it out somehow.

[mixed_girl]

There are therapists who specialize in family counseling. If you can find one who speaks Cantonese, you can go together with your mom.

I will definitely look into it, gato. Thanks for the suggestion. I highly doubt that she is going to come with me to a therapist though, but will become even more angry for telling a strange person all my problems. I will see what I can do.

OK, I see that a psychotherapist might be too provocative to your mom. Hmm…In your area, can you find some female relative who is at the similar age with your mom and can speak Cantonese? If you can’t, your friend’s or classmate’s mother can do, as long as she is trustworthy and can communicate in Cantonese and English. I think the most important thing in your case is that you should find someone who can help you communicate with your mom. I’m sure your mom feels frustrated because she can’t communicate with you and others.

Hmm.... a female relative similar to my mother's age and that speaks Cantonese...I can't think of anyone right now. I don't think I know an adult who speaks English and Chinese in my neighborhood or family. I thought of my aunt who speaks Chinese and some Spanish, but she lives in another country and she is going through her own marital problems.

f your mother is an old-fashioned traditional Chinese parent, chances are she will never stop seeing you as a child. Trying to change that might be to high an aim. In my view the best you could hope for, especially seeing that time seems to run short, is that she doesn't object too much to your fiance, and doesn't throw you out of the family for marrying him.

I'm not sure how to help you, but I wish you the best of luck, and hope you can work it out somehow.

Thanks for the luck, Lu. I hope for the same thing as well.

[SChinFChin]

I feel for you as my sister and I gone through this.

My sister got married the first time at about 19 years of age, having left home at 18, to a husband of "Puerto Rican" descent. My parents yelled and screamed and told her "that's she's not a daughter anymore", and don't show her face back home. She left and didn't come back for ten years, till her 1st husband died, and her kids were 8 and 10 years of age.

As to your mom saying you'll have to wait for this and that before you married, my parents was afraid I was going to leave home, when I wanted to move out, and look for an American women. They first told me that I should finish college. I did that. They said I should finish grad school. I did that.. They said I should find a job and save some money first. So, I worked for two and three years, and put my whole paycheck in the bank, for a few years.

I was by then 28 years old already, and wanted to move to a place of my own. I work Monday to Saturdays, help in their store on Saturday, so I figured I go out to be with my friends on Sunday, or date. They tell me they work all week, doesn't get a chance to see me, and I should wait till they get up and eat on Sunday. They get up at 1:00PM on Sunday, get to eat at 3:00PM, and when I follow that schedule, my weekend starts at 5:00PM Sunday.

It was difficult to find dates if the only time you have for them is Sunday after 5:00PM.

I found a place, I moved, and they yelled and screamed, and told me not to come home. I asked them when is a "good time to move". They answer this time is that I would have to wait till my brother finished college, and start working. As my brother was 10 years younger, I would have to wait till I'm 35 years old.

I married three years after moving out to a Chinese girl, but they refuse to come to the weddimg because I didn't follow their rules. I'm married 29 years now, and have two girls of my own.

Some people suggest they see a therapist. That gets them all the more angry as they said I'm the crazy one, and why should they see a therapist if I'm the crazy one

Some people say it takes time. They are partly right. I took my wife along to visit them a few times a year, and for the first 10 to 15 years, they hardly spoke to her. My wife speaks Cantonese, so does my parents. They finally came around and acknowleged her after 15 years, when I took my duaghters along.

My wonderful wife put up with it, but I doubt it if anyone else will,

My brother followed their rules, and let they go look for a Chinese girl for him. He met a few and told them he didn't care for any of the ones he saw, and finally told them not to waste his time. He's almost 50 years old now, and never married.

A few years ago, I asked my dad how things were going finding a girl for my brother. I was trying to be a wise guy and also see if he finally saw the light. My dad shook his head and said he gave up on it already. I smiled to myself, said to him "in today's society, people choose their own spouses, and you're wasting your time and his looking for a Chinese girl". He didn't argue.

That' my way of saying to you, that your mom would say you should do this, that and the other thing, and by the time you're done, you'll be 50 years old already.

It actually happened to a customer of my dad's some years ago. She was a beautiful women of about 50 at the time, and my dad remarked she was supposed to finally get married. My dad said this women's mom objected to the guy she wanted to marry, said she should do this, do this, that, and the other thing, and the women waited and waited and waited, till finally her mom died, and she was already over 50. She finally set a wedding date, after patiently dating this man for over 20 years.

The sad part of the story is the man she was going to marry got hit and killed by a car the week before the wedding.

My suggestion is you're old enough to make your own decision. You may have to make the wedding plans without her. My future "mother-in-law" tried to come by, talk nice to my parents,, but was thrown out of the house. She never spoke to my parents since.

And how did I tell him about the upcoming weddig?? It's "do you want your name on the wedding invitation, and how do you want your name spelled out on the wedding invitation in Chinese" ." We don't want to spell it wrong" You don't want to show up?? "OK Should we tell the guests the groom's parents died, or they're too sick to walk"??.

We had our wedding withoout them, or anyone from our family. My sister had two weddings done that way.

My parents are both in their 80's now, him bedridden, and her in a wheelchair, and have an attendent come by each day. My brother comes by every weekend because he's got no where else to go. Lately, they been trying to be nice to me, and my mom asked me if I wanted to stay for dinner when I went myself to see them the other week, the first time in 29 years. I almost cried. She said I looked a bit tired. Well, I told her I have to hit the road to be home with my family. She said "that's very nice".

I wonder what's going through their minds right now, having wasted their whole life fighting their kids. I kept thinking, "that how they wind up". Very sad.