Should Chinese frogive Japanese?

[troussier1955]

Sometimes, forgiveness is a way to heal.

[Quest]

not until they become sincere with their apology.

[39degN]

that weak nationality are never brave enough to apologize and face loss. i m not racialist, but for such a race, i can't help. sorry everybody. or maybe i should've said "the japanese government", not the nationality.

[holyman]

apologise for? if china and japan can resume diplomatic relations in 1972, do u think the japanese hadnt apologised? will the ccp govt accept this without an apology?

[holyman]

frankly speaking, there is nothing to 'forgive' for present chinese people. imagine if those ww2 japanese veterans went to china to ask for forgiveness from the victims, probably those people who were badly hurt during the war/invasion(or their direct family members) can say 'i forgive u'. but those born after the war, who they think they are to request the japanese to beg for forgiveness? they are not involved in the war, neither are those japanese born after the war. they have no relation with each other whatsoever.

[Quest]

frankly speaking, there is nothing to 'forgive' for present chinese people. imagine if those ww2 japanese veterans went to china to ask for forgiveness from the victims, probably those people who were badly hurt during the war/invasion(or their direct family members) can say 'i forgive u'. but those born after the war, who they think they are to request the japanese to beg for forgiveness? they are not involved in the war, neither are those japanese born after the war. they have no relation with each other whatsoever.

BS. They are the sons and daughters, they are the survivors, and they are the relatives of those who had died.

They are the representatives of the dead. Now are you saying only the dead have the right to ask for an apology?

[pazu]

Japanese never bend to their admirers...

Dui bu qi, gomen nasai~

[39degN]

Japanese never bend to their admirers...

do you think china is the admirer? how come you can get such a conclusion? econemy cooperation doesnt mean that we admire them, who do you think they are?

日本人只不过是历来就能傍大款而已，他们有什么值得我们倾慕的？当中国强大时就做中国的小蜜，美国强大了又成了美国的姘头，而且不惜全盘照搬人家的东西，只不过是顺风倒而已，有什么值得赞美的？

除去买日本货的时候，面对日本人我就是狭隘民族主义者。

我比较不理解的就是中国政府当时放弃赔款要求，本来战败国赔款就是国际惯例，天经地义，为什么要放弃？虽然其后日本援助了很多建设项目及提供政府贷款，但是须知那笔战争赔款对中国千疮百孔的经济会有多大的立杆见影的帮助啊？这绝对是中国外交史上的败笔。（虽然还有其他上亿个败笔）中国，虽胜犹耻！

其理由据说是中国政府急于与日本恢复外交关系，给日本人留了面子，太可笑了。我不知道日本人在南京给堂堂一国首都留了面子没有？

其结果是战败国获得了无压力及和平的发展机会，摇身一变成为强国。高！而战胜国人民如我者至今还在经济的缓慢发展中回味TMD到底是谁战败了？

[cathaykid]

forgiving is one thing.forgetting is another.inkling is dangerous

forgiveness IS the way to heal,only when somebody wants to be forgiven,instead of runing away.we have to both face it and be fair,i don't see the japanese government feel sorry at all.they don't want it,why ask us to forgive those in fault?

frankly speaking, there is nothing to 'forgive' for present chinese people. imagine if those ww2 japanese veterans went to china to ask for forgiveness from the victims, probably those people who were badly hurt during the war/invasion(or their direct family members) can say 'i forgive u'. but those born after the war, who they think they are to request the japanese to beg for forgiveness? they are not involved in the war, neither are those japanese born after the war. they have no relation with each other whatsoever.

blah.that is to forget something,the problem remains.and who do you think you are to judge us?you don't have the rights to tell us what to do.you are not a victim either,you obviously don't even care.step back

and if you have a problem with anyone,will you let it be and wait until time lets it fade away.this world needs no solution then,there's no such thing as a historical problem either.

the japanese born after WW2 enjoyed the acheivement their fathers made based on OUR resources which they robbed China of.They ARE beneficial.

the Chinese people,direct or indirect victims,suffered the problems left by the war.our economy was destroyed,many of us became orphans,our opportunities of receiving education and having a nomarl life were lost,everything happened made us what we are today.and the war brought us the worst of all that possible

the germans never need anyone to remind them of the relation between these two.

[pazu]

do you think china is the admirer? how come you can get such a conclusion? econemy cooperation doesnt mean that we admire them, who do you think they are?

Chinese factories shamelessly put up some Katakana and Hiragana on their package even if the products aren't targeted to Japan, and indeed, Japanese can't understand: この餅干は世界第一で好吃だ大人気が流行ある！

These shameless behaviour is a general phenomenon (go to a supermarket, go to the snacks section, check it out).

If there's other choice, I usually prefer to buy one without those funny Japanese script. I don't really hate Japanese (and I can speak the language), but I just want to send a message (with no fruits, definitely) to those factory owners, some people feel shame to buy products like that.

[pazu]

Okay, and back to my point. These are what I called the admirers.

[Quest]

cathaykid is right, they don't want to be forgiven at all.

pazu is right, they look down on us so they dont feel the need.

and the conclusion is, we don't care, but we won't forget.

and pazu, you are bringing up the "contradiction" again, but as a developing country, a lot of things are out of our control, but that does not mean the rest of us can just forget and forgive.

[holyman]

BS. They are the sons and daughters, they are the survivors, and they are the relatives of those who had died.

They are the representatives of the dead. Now are you saying only the dead have the right to ask for an apology?

the practice of killing/blaming the whole clan for a single person's wrong doing is long gone in the past. at present, legally speaking u are not obliged to pay for ur father's or ur brother's debt, though most people will choose to do so. the present japanese are born after the war, most of them had never set foot on chinese land and doesnt know any chinese friends all their life, do u expect them to apologise? if their country had a wrong policy, made a wrong move in the past, let the govt and heads of state settle among themselves. to put the blame on the whole japanese race is simply a racist remark.

they are the 'representatives of the dead'? then show me a legal letter for that representation. please, we dont take bloodline for standards nowadays. every individual represent only himself and he is only responsible for his own actions. he cannot represent others or vice versa unless he is given the authority to do so. can i 'represent' u to take money from ur accounts without ur consent? why, by racial content we are all chinese, arent we? or maybe i can take money from my brother's account cos i automatically 'represent' him since we are family members.

[holyman]

blah.that is to forget something,the problem remains.and who do you think you are to judge us?you don't have the rights to tell us what to do.you are not a victim either,you obviously don't even care.step back

u are soooo humourous. the present japanese had nothing in their memory to begin with, how could they 'forget' something that they dont even know, had no experience at all in the first place? same thing for present chinese, they never been thru the war and they had no memory of that period of bad times, what they have in their minds were taught to them, from their education, media, whatever. as for the judging part, too bad u misunderstood, i wasnt judging and dont intend to do so too, just speaking my mind. anyway i can have my own opinions about it and u dont have to agree with me.

the japanese born after WW2 enjoyed the acheivement their fathers made based on OUR resources which they robbed China of.They ARE beneficial...

what benefits? please read up ur history books. the japanese are economically and politically on par with the chinese, if not worst off, after the war. it is the korean war and after that the states needed them to curb the communists expansion, then the states helped them rebuild their economy. they wouldnt be better than china now if not for that.

the common japanese also suffered from what their govt had done. were they anyway better than the chinese after the war? no. they too had no food, no homes, no money. they had to part with their culture and traitional customs, and their religion and education cos these were said to be the roots of their aggressiveness.

and if you have a problem with anyone,will you let it be and wait until time lets it fade away.this world needs no solution then,there's no such thing as a historical problem either...

i had a childhood friend whom i knew for 20+ yrs, was a neighbour too. one day his dad had problems with mine over some business issues. they never talk to each other since then. but we still talk and during chinese new yr i paid a visit to his place, talk to his parents as well. later on he paid a visit to my place. my dad wasnt very pleased with what i did. but hey, think about it, how many 20+ yrs friend can one have? regarding the quarrel btw our parents, it wasnt settled too, thou they still say hi when they see each other on the streets, they dont really 'talk'. it was a historical problem. but that doesnt affect the younger generation. when he got married he invited me, thou his parents sees it unnecessary.

same thing, i was born and brought up listening to my parent's and grandparent's tale of the japanese invasion. i was taught that the japanese are villians(at least in that part of history). but later on i had a japanese girlfriend, and she came to my place one day. both my parents had their childhood under japanese rule, and they had to make straw mats and plant tobacco for the japanese military consumption etc etc. but did they make my girlfriend apologise? they didnt. to them, that young girl is not responsible for their sufferings, and should not be made responsible for it, why pressurise her? they avoid the whole topic in the beginning. later on when they are more familiar, sometimes they talked about their younger days and they mentioned a little of that period of time, but still they talked about the funny things then, not the villianeous things the japanese army did(that includes the killing of the whole family of my grandad's neighbour, also my dad's childhood friend, 17 of them in total). for this, i am really grateful and happy to have such reasonable parents. they never failed to expose me to every detail of that part of history, yet they dont vent their unhappiness on every single japanese they see.

then i get to know a lot of japanese later on in my life. all good-natured people, many of them were volunteers to various ngo groups and had been sent to many countries, including china. to say that they are the same as the hideous japanese villians projected in chinese history books is simply unbelievable.

[holyman]

put it the other way round, let's assume the japanese didnt apologise at all, then one day if one single japanese(say, he's grandson of an ex-ww2 japanese veteran ) decides represent his grandad(or his people) to apologise to a chinese, like for example, to cathaykid. does anyone think cathaykid have the right to represent the chinese to say, 'ok, i forgive the japnese'? personally i dont think so. unless it's gonna happen btw the govts. therefore no point blaming the common japanese, cos even if they decide to take the blame the common chinese didnt have the right to 'forgive' them either. both sides dont have the representation for his country or his people.

anyway, i was wondering, the chinese had acquired a lot of land thruout their history, did they apologise for every country they invaded, conquered, or every race they expelled or eliminated? no, cos these had disappeared altogether, wipeout or 'assimilated' into the 'zhonghua minzu'. in chinese history books these actions are crowned with mild descriptions, like 'open the boundaries' or 'strategically managing that area', 'running(as in 'running a business') that area'. words like 'attack' or 'invasion' dont really appear when the chinese started a military campaign against others, cos it'll always be a 'just cause' when the chinese decides to beat somebody up. anyone sees a close resemblance recently?

it seems funny they make so much noise when they became the victim for once.

[troussier1955]

I have seen a lot of young people in China who listen to Made-in-Japan CD players, but they say they REALLY hate Japanese. That doesn't make sense.

Japan aggressed China many years ago, but have you ever thought about why they chose China, why not other countries. What a humiliation! Remember all the wrongdoings done by Japanese in China, but meanwhile, don't forget this hummiliation covered upon China as well. We don't hate because of hatred,but because we should be stimulated by that humiliation to make our country stronger.

If China is not more powerful than before, Japan will not apologize.

When we hate Japan, consider about what we should do for our own country, we have to make some changes.

I wanna ask, do you use Japanese pruducts in your daily life???

[Quest]

every individual represent only himself and he is only responsible for his own actions.

Good, why do we need cops then?

Holyman, no one is asking the Japanese people to apologize, but what we ask is that the government that's representing Japan to show some respect to the people who suffered during WWII, and admit that they've hurt the Chinese people and the Chinese nation. It is a one time thing if they do it properly, then we can move on. Now, you see what they are doing? Their head of state paying respect to 14 Class A war criminals, their media and politicians denying the existence of the Rape of Nanjing, or even the invasian itself.

We do not hate any individual Japanese, but as a nation we cannot forgive them, not yet.

I agree with you that everyone represents only himself, but everyone together also represents his/her country and the opinion of his/her country, however insignificantly. What you said is full of NS, we really need some common sense nowadays. Time to come back from your peaceful and idealistic world -- 翻来啰～～ 翻来啰～～～

[Quest]

I wanna ask, do you use Japanese pruducts in your daily life???

Please refer to the other thread for answers.

[holyman]

Good, why do we need cops then?

isnt that obvious? to be responsible for one's actions doesnt mean his actions are definitely legal. cops are there becos we dont promote personal revenge anymore. instead we established a legal system to deal with those who are responsible for illegal actions. as for the present japanese, they are not responsible for what chinese(at least some chinese) are accusing them of. example like 39deg above.

and please dont tell me the chinese people only wanted the japanese govt to apologise instead of the common japanese. i would say that that's ur peaceful and idealistic world. i have heard, i have seen with my own eyes and i have personally interfered multiple times, when japanese tourists and students talked to chinese they are forced to apologise for ww2. i have seen multiple times in china when people purposely create a scene to insult normal japanese tourists who had done no wrong to them at all. i have read in chinese forums cries of destroying the whole japanese race, raping all the japanese women, and beating up every japanese they see. and these are not just a small group of people, they represent the majority of chinese forumers and internet users i came across.

i dont see all their media or politicians denying the invasion or the rape of nanking, and i think u are making a sweeping statement here. unlike china japan does enjoy a certain level of freedom and they are allowed to say what they 'believed to be true'. some of them did deny, with invalid arguments. but others proved them wrong with solid facts. japanese research on the rape of nanking and war crimes is no less than the chinese, and unlike the chinese who are usually funded by the govt to do such research, most japanese historians dealing with these issues are on their own, and i can say their works that i have came across are among the best accounts of these incidents, with full figures, pictures, abstracts from govt documents(that the chinese cannot easily get hold of), and also dairies from ww2 veterans. even lawyers in japan fighting for compensations from japanese govt to chinese labourers(who were kidnapped to japan during the war) are funded by none other than they themselves. how could u deny the hardwork of these people with ur own biasness?

[troussier1955]

China relies on Japan in terms of economy, light industry and IT industry. Do you hate someone that you really rely on?

If we hate, please hate them utterly.

Anything that concerns with history, talk about history then. But what is the most important now? It is not asking Japan for apology. If apology works, let's gather all the Chinese people together, and go to Japan, claiming their official apology. The victims during wars will remain hurt. If there is something used to hurt you, if you hate, you will hurt for all the time, but if you forgive, even if the thing is still in your mind, but you will not be sad or cry for it.