Should Chinese frogive Japanese?

[sm_sung]

does that really matters? if a murderer says the earth is a sphere, or a yr is 365.25days, it doesnt mean he's wrong just becos he's a murderer. facts remain as facts regardless of the id of the speaker, and so are opinions.

Holyman, you're twisting your words. Fact validity remains regardless of the speaker's identity. However, opinion validities are subjective and differ according to the background of the speaker. If a murderer claimed he was not guilty, would you trust him right away? There's a reason why the two words exist: facts are proven, opinions are not. Do you understand what I'm saying???

[holyman]

Let me first explain my point of view. I have no hatred whatsoever towards any Japanese individuals, however I think that the actions of their government are nothing short of despicable. Like Koizumi's repeated shrine visits despite protests from many Asian countries.

and why does japan have to listen to all other asian countries? does china listen to other countries when managing its domestic affairs? isnt it obvious that every govt works for the interests of its own nation? u are probably right, they are despicable on certain issues, from the chinese point of view. but the japanese govt doesnt work for the chinese, they work for japan. and furthermore being despicable hold no water legally. thats more like a moral issue. u are hitting on the wrong part using the wrong reasons. the fact is, it is wrong for him to visit yoshikuni jinja, becos its against the japanese constitution, thats an illegal act, thats all. but even if he still choose to do so and the japanese govt decides to let him off, as foreigners we cant really do anything except condemning him.

and i can tell u, the only asian countries that made noise is probably china and korea. reasons being all other asian countries had recieved compensations from japan after the war, of course they keep quiet after that.

You know holyman, this paragraph sends out many wrong messages, especially the part ragarding the korean girl's experience. if she asked me why a chinese sold her handphone, i would simply tell her that it was because she was in China! Yes, there are bad Chinese around(just like in any society), but asking a question like "why are chinese like that?" and generalizing the behaviours of all Chinese is just plain wrong and racist. Are you trying to tell me no crimes against Chinese happen in Korea or Japan?

nope, it doesnt. i have seen many times pickpockets stealing on the streets, and i have even stop a few of them. i personally bumped into pickpockets 3 times, in beijing, in guilin and in ... what was the place... it was a city in hubei where the gezhou ba dam was built. luckily i lost nothing cos i fend them off. but unluckily, my bike was stolen 4 times, even when i have 3 locks on one of them. i have not lost a single bike for 20 yrs anywhere else, but i lost 4 in beijing in just 18mths. to be frank, i have not seen so many thieves and pickpockets anywhere else, not in japan, not in korea.

and please dont tell me they are xinjiang people or minority races. han chinese and xinjiang minorities are both into this. but i have to admit the xinjiang ppl are more problematic cos fearing foreign countries accusing them of ill treating no-han chinese, the police cant do anything to them. its a catch and release cycle. and xinjiang picpockets are usually armed. i really cant tell my korean friend that she shouldnt make such a racists remark, cos i dont have enough confidence to back me up. anywhere else, thieves and pickpockets probably steal when the victim is careless and they have a chance. here in china, even if u are careful, they are so persistent, they'll stalk u, go thru so much trouble just to steal ur things. if she slap my own experiences back at my face, i cant take it...

and if u wanna talk about japan, the fact is chinese topped the criminal lists for foreign criminals in japan. chinese criminals are the largest foreign criminal group in japan.

This isn't due to double standards...are the bachivets asking for an apology? Why does America apologize for the events in Abu Gharib prison but not for taking over native American Indian land(centuries ago)?

the bach viets arent asking for any cos they are eliminated, assimilated, whatever. and their land is taken away. if they still exist today, are the chinese govt gonna do that? ok, i bring in the bach viets cos i didnt want to hurt anyone's feelings too badly. but if u wanna dwell into it, how about xinjiang? can u please tell me the meaning of the chinese word 'xinjiang'?

i dont know why u bring america into the scene, but american govt did apologise to the people of hawaii some yrs back, for their brutal acts against the hawailians a century ago.

[holyman]

If you really believe in that, why have you been so fervently telling us that you are a Chinese when it seems that you aren't one? Can you justify your actions?

its just becos that u didnt catch what i meant, u didnt understood what i meant, doesnt mean that i am lying or contradicting myself. u should read more. i suggest u try the 'find all posts by ...' button more frequently.

Holyman, you're twisting your words. Fact validity remains regardless of the speaker's identity. However, opinion validities are subjective and differ according to the background of the speaker. If a murderer claimed he was not guilty, would you trust him right away? There's a reason why the two words exist: facts are proven, opinions are not. Do you understand what I'm saying???

u are right. but arent those examples i gave considered facts? do u want to check with the police was there a japanese girl working as a unesco volunteer killed in sichuan? havent u seen thieves on the streets, on buses? how many times u see chinese queue up to get things done and how many times u see them not doing so? do u want to visit xinhuanet forums or any other major chinese gateways to see the hostility common chinese have towards japanese, americans or koreans? have the common japanese done any wrong to the chinese as a whole to deserve such treatment? are u denying these facts? can u?

well, on the other hand, for my opinions on these issues, u can cast them asideif u are not happy to see them.

anyway, both murderers and innocent people will claim themselves to be innocent when questioned, therefore presumed innocence is introduced, and i have no reasons not to trust him before he's convicted. that would be kind of discrimination. in some countries a person cannot try to convict himself for a crime. the logic is, only people suffering from mental illness will do that. so ur analogy is irrelevant.

[39degN]

well, ignored this thread for a whlile, when i coming back, something really raised my eyebrows. wow big surprise!

as for the present japanese, they are not responsible for what chinese(at least some chinese) are accusing them of. example like 39deg above.

well, what the hell i have accused them of? what i said is just responsing pazu's so called chinese is the admirer of japanse. as an individual, i dislike japanese national personality, what's wrong with this, i do not only dislike it, i cant stand them at all! just like that you seems dont like chinese at all! dont i have this right?

the other thing i was talking about is just hating the chinese gov didnt ask for the war compensation(妇人之仁), and what's the deal with japanese here?

about the so-called volunteer killed in sichuan, are you sure that's not a common murder? why you emphasized she is japanese? there are numorous chinese were killed around the world including in japan every year, every case SB considered racial murder?

have the common japanese done any wrong to the chinese as a whole to deserve such treatment? are u denying these facts? can u?

ridiculous, just visit the japan today like sites to see what comments about chinese and european they have done, have the common chinese done any wrong to the japanese as a whole to deserve such treatment? 一个巴掌拍不响,先生. idividuals are always emotional, picking on this is meaningless.

every sociaty has its dark side, why you always pick on china's, are you sure the country you are from has no these problems?

btw, seems you have so much complaints about chinese ppl, neither like them, then take your own way, it's your right and freedom, nobody will ask you for staying in china any longer.

[pazu]

It's your personal feeling, but no matter what you have in your mind, you have confused of being a racist and being able to be thinking with freedom.

But as you have said, you have that in your mind, people can still criticize you of being a racist. You have expressed your view on this forum and people have the rights to criticize you, if you put your thoughts into action, people have the rights to arrest you if there's some appropriate law, definitely not in China at this very moment. Lucky for you!

When I was in Lhasa I met a guy from Guangdong, he came in my room (dormitory), he saw me, he shrinked his face and said to the staff, "我不會跟那些小日本同房間!", he didn't say this to me but he did refer to me because he thought I was Japanese, then I told him to take that easy because there're no Japanese at that room, and I also pointed out that he wore a Casio G-Shock too.

He looked a bit embarrased, he rushed to the reception to register and ignored my comments, in a word, he pissed himself.

[holyman]

well, what the hell i have accused them of?

below is ur comment on the first page. ur actions speaks for itself.

that weak nationality are never brave enough to apologize and face loss.

fact is there are much more people in japan than the few japanese politicians who accept the truth about ww2 and had apologised to the chinese. that includes historians, lawyers, common japanese, even ex-prime minister murayama when he visited china in 1995 while in office. u can have ur opinions, but if u keep it to urself, or to a small group of friends, it's alright. u put it on a public forum, then u must face other opinions, even criticism. that's called '舆论监督' in chinese. but i guess u are not very familiar with that cos thats hardly applicable in china. for me, there are a lot of loop holes in my reasoning too, some of them can be considered BS. but i guess others are too polite to pick on them.

i dont like the bad habits or bad attitude certain chinese have(ok, this line is rather subjective... cultural differences i should say), not all chinese as a whole. the fact that i remained in china after so much unhappiness is that i still have faith in the rest of them. by asking me to leave becos i have talked about the dark side, shows that u dont understand the difference btw stating some social facts about china and discriminating all chinese. to like something doesnt mean u ignore their weakness, or worst, take their weakness for a virtue.

ridiculous, just visit the japan today like sites to see what comments about chinese and european they have done, have the common chinese done any wrong to the japanese as a whole to deserve such treatment?

i have stated previously, presently chinese criminals topped the foreigners' criminal list in japan. are the common japanese criminals that topped the chinese foreigners' criminal lists? there are probably shanghainese here in this forums. u can ask them whether they hate the xinjiang pickpockets. now in shanghai these people are almost like robbing under broad daylight. can u say that the shanghainese are now discriminating people from xinjiang? they cant help it. yes, there are criminals everywhere. but according to marxists theory(i think), quality changes as quantity vary. one or two cases, people take it as individual actions. when it becomes rampant, the judgement on the whole group naturally falls to a lower level.

and please dont bring in japanese invasion, cos u wanna talk history, the history of chinese military expansion goes way to long to discuss... i dont know how much hatred the koreans or vietnamese or other eliminated races should have towards the chinese if we are to talk about it.

[holyman]

the other thing i was talking about is just hating the chinese gov didnt ask for the war compensation(妇人之仁), and what's the deal with japanese here?

not exactly correct. compensation was recieved but the amount is neligible. the deal was that after the war, japanese properties/factories in china are to be dismantled/confiscated to pay for the war damages. some were confiscated, but later on american attitude towards japan improved so the next few phrases of handling over stopped. anyway even if it continued the value is still very low. . then in 1972, prc govt decided to waive the compensation, on the basis that japan admit its mistakes in the past and will not do anything to hurt its neighbours in the future. so case is closed.

regarding japanese apology, they did took the initiative to send a delegation to china to discuss about a proper apology, somewhere in 1946. but the chinese reception officer yell and insulted the group on their arrival and shortly after that they left for japan. apology was never on their to-do list after this incident. i think its just a communication break down. u can have ur own opinions.

[pazu]

and please dont bring in japanese invasion, cos u wanna talk history, the history of chinese military expansion goes way to long to discuss... i dont know how much hatred the koreans or vietnamese or other eliminated races should have towards the chinese if we are to talk about it.

Your point reminded me of some people who liked to stop people's talking by throwing some non-relevant points. Talk about the Human Rights in China, then some people would say, hey hey hey look at the American in Iraq or even in California, they're racist and blah blah blah, then hey, as if pointing out Americans are racists would diminish the problem in China.

Come on, HM, problems still exist in Japan even if China didn't behave well itself. You're talking about China in a whole, but many people in China had nothing to do with Vietnam and Korea who but had their friends/family killed in the Japanese invasion, or still suffered directly or indirectly from the Japanese invasion.

HM, stick to the Japanese or Chinese attitude on this, ignore all other non-relevant points or there's just no way to keep on discussion. You can make a good long blah blah blah discusssion on Vietnam, Korea, Tibet etc on another thread.

[holyman]

actually learnt that tactic from the chinese i encountered ...

i said that to avoid dragging it too far fetched. had planned to stick to the present. i still regard xinjiang or tibet as chinese territory, just like hawaii is american territory, cos its already history. i hoped that if the chinese can see these as historical events, they can see the japanese invasion as one too, and move on with it. there are a lot of things chinese can do to help the development of china, but things like hating another country or its people, or feeling sour about developments in other countries, boycotting products etc, are definitely useless ways.

while some argued that japan didnt officially apologised, i already proved them wrong, cos they did, at least one of their prime ministers did. the accusation or the hatred is unnecessary.

nah, i'm not gonna say much about the japanese dark side cos i dont want to fuel chinese 'patriots' with more info to justify their actions towards japanese or other foreigners. of cos i know the japanese have a lot of problems since i mixed around with them for 1/3 of my lifetime. their politics, their general outlook on china and the rest of the world, even their social structure and general mentality, i have always discussed these with my japanese friends. but i shall keep it in my circle, probably not talk about it here. in a japanese forum it'll be the other way round i think.

[39degN]

below is ur comment on the first page. ur actions speaks for itself.

Ok, I apologize to Japanese pll, I did something improper here.

that's called '舆论监督' in chinese. but i guess u are not very familiar with that cos thats hardly applicable in china. for me, there are a lot of loop holes in my reasoning too, some of them can be considered BS. but i guess others are too polite to pick on them.

I really hope it's not personal attack. And I m sure it's not teaching your grandma to suck eggs.

i dont like the bad habits or bad attitude certain chinese have(ok, this line is rather subjective... cultural differences i should say), not all chinese as a whole. the fact that i remained in china after so much unhappiness is that i still have faith in the rest of them. by asking me to leave becos i have talked about the dark side, shows that u dont understand the difference btw stating some social facts about china and discriminating all chinese. to like something doesnt mean u ignore their weakness, or worst, take their weakness for a virtue.

I regret to say I didn't notice the red colored words there through reading your former posts, what you have mentioned basically titled just simply "Chinese", I don't think your words have any essential difference from my comments on Japanese, even my post has mentioned "or maybe i should've said "the japanese government", not the nationality." Sure, I agree with your point this turn.

u can ask them whether they hate the xinjiang pickpockets. now in shanghai these people are almost like robbing under broad daylight. can u say that the shanghainese are now discriminating people from xinjiang? they cant help it. yes, there are criminals everywhere. but according to marxists theory(i think), quality changes as quantity vary. one or two cases, people take it as individual actions. when it becomes rampant, the judgement on the whole group naturally falls to a lower level.

Are you sure what you are talking about isn't a race label? Personally I disagree with a few xin jiang ren's actions either, but I do really hope you are not holding double standards when facing Japanese and xinjiangese.

and please dont bring in japanese invasion, cos u wanna talk history, the history of chinese military expansion goes way to long to discuss... i dont know how much hatred the koreans or vietnamese or other eliminated races should have towards the chinese if we are to talk about it.

Yes, are you sure Chinese has done any in korea like Japanese in najing did in the whole history? And don't you think that's a little bit weird that they asked for qin gov's help when Japanese liberated them from china's plantation ruling? Japanese even raped their queen.

[39degN]

It's your personal feeling, but no matter what you have in your mind, you have confused of being a racist and being able to be thinking with freedom.

oh, i have never been chaseing your "freedom", i just be what i wanna be, i m afraid it's none of your business. if that was wrong, pls teach me what to do.

But as you have said, you have that in your mind, people can still criticize you of being a racist. You have expressed your view on this forum and people have the rights to criticize you, if you put your thoughts into action, people have the rights to arrest you if there's some appropriate law, definitely not in China at this very moment. Lucky for you!

what the hell are you talking about? what thoughts will put into action? ppl have no rithts "not to do" what they dont wanna do?

When I was in Lhasa I met a guy from Guangdong, he came in my room (dormitory), he saw me, he shrinked his face and said to the staff, "我不會跟那些小日本同房間!", he didn't say this to me but he did refer to me because he thought I was Japanese, then I told him to take that easy because there're no Japanese at that room, and I also pointed out that he wore a Casio G-Shock too.

He looked a bit embarrased, he rushed to the reception to register and ignored my comments, in a word, he pissed himself.

its a pity that there're no deals with me.

[holyman]

I really hope it's not personal attack. And I m sure it's not teaching your grandma to suck eggs.

yet again, ur action speaks much louder than ur words.

I regret to say I didn't notice the red colored words there through reading your former posts, what you have mentioned basically titled just simply "Chinese", I don't think your words have any essential difference from my comments on Japanese,

sorry to disappoint u, i dont think i had made a personal remark on all chinese in this thread. the closest thing was when i reflected opinion on all chinese from certain people, example, from those japanese or koreans i knew, but these are not necessarily my own opinions.

Are you sure what you are talking about isn't a race label? Personally I disagree with a few xin jiang ren's actions either, but I do really hope you are not holding double standards when facing Japanese and xinjiangese.

nope, i dont hate xinjiang ren either, cos at least they never done anything bad to me yet. i was asking u to ask shanghainese, cos i have seen shanghainese planning all sorts of ways to fend off xinjiangren on various occasions, like bringing a knife with them when they're on the streets, put a piece of pork in their bags or smear their wallets with lard, etc etc. and they posted replied like 'xinjiang m****ms are the worst group of people in the world' or 'kill all m****m p**s' on their forums. i can see their hatred, just reflecting it here.

Yes, are you sure Chinese has done any in korea like Japanese in najing did in the whole history? And don't you think that's a little bit weird that they asked for qin gov's help when Japanese liberated them from china's plantation ruling? Japanese even raped their queen.

why not? we dont have to go too far back, just qing dynasty alone. one single general is enough to represent. have u heard of general zuo zong tang? can u tell me how sucessful was his military campaign in northwest china? was his nickname 'zuo the butcher'? or maybe genhis khan or kublai khan, unless u say that they are not chinese rulers... another minor one is wang zhen, a ccp general i think, ex-governor for xinjiang. i can name u a few others if u want...

as for the koreans, the court is divided into pro chinese factions and pro japanese factions. those asking for help are the pro chinese factions. regarding the queen, let me ask how many minority races sent their princess to chinese rulers to exchange for peace thruout chinese history?

what the hell are you talking about? what thoughts will put into action? ppl have no rithts "not to do" what they dont wanna do?

which reminds me a question sm_sung asked me in earlier post, why do i 'pretend' to be a chinese when it seems 'i am not one'. 'if' no 'thoughts' will be put into action, why do u 'pretend' to dislike japanese when u are not gonna dislike them? then we look around a little bit, why do those 'patroitic' chinese say they'll 'bash every japanese they see' or 'start a tokyo massacre' when they are not actually gonna do so? why do they say things they are not going to do? are they lying? was their hatred towards the japanese fake? are they just pretending to be 'patroits'?

[pazu]

actually learnt that tactic from the chinese i encountered ...

Then you must be either very dumb or stupid. Poor guy.

[39degN]

sorry to disappoint u, i dont think i had made a personal remark on all chinese in this thread. the closest thing was when i reflected opinion on all chinese from certain people, example, from those japanese or koreans i knew, but these are not necessarily my own opinions.

I must admit you are so intelligent and so familiar with Chinese culture, you even know 借刀杀人 and 推诿扯皮 , do your friends commission you represent them to post opinions? You can only represent yourself, not everyone else. You can't shuffle off responsibilities onto other people. once you talk about it, you have to get responsible for it, can I just simply said my points are of my friends?

nope, i dont hate xinjiang ren either, cos at least they never done anything bad to me yet. i was asking u to ask shanghainese, cos i have seen shanghainese planning all sorts of ways to fend off xinjiangren on various occasions, like bringing a knife with them when they're on the streets, put a piece of pork in their bags or smear their wallets with lard, etc etc. and they posted replied like 'xinjiang m****ms are the worst group of people in the world' or 'kill all m****m p**s' on their forums. i can see their hatred, just reflecting it here.

Yes, you have no rights to represent shanghai ppl either.

why not? we dont have to go too far back, just qing dynasty alone. one single general is enough to represent. have u heard of general zuo zong tang? can u tell me how sucessful was his military campaign in northwest china? was his nickname 'zuo the butcher'? or maybe genhis khan or kublai khan, unless u say that they are not chinese rulers... another minor one is wang zhen, a ccp general i think, ex-governor for xinjiang. i can name u a few others if u want...

did zuo zongtang killed 350,000 plebeian in xinjiang? If he did such kind of things, pls point out the detail evidences. Im interested in it too.

as for the koreans, the court is divided into pro chinese factions and pro japanese factions. those asking for help are the pro chinese factions. regarding the queen, let me ask how many minority races sent their princess to chinese rulers to exchange for peace thruout chinese history?

When a nation's queen has been raped by japanese, some ppl there still stand on the side of pro Japanese, except traitors I have no ideas to describe them. As for the princess thing, we called this political, not slaughter.

which reminds me a question sm_sung asked me in earlier post, why do i 'pretend' to be a chinese when it seems 'i am not one'. 'if' no 'thoughts' will be put into action, why do u 'pretend' to dislike japanese when u are not gonna dislike them? then we look around a little bit, why do those 'patroitic' chinese say they'll 'bash every japanese they see' or 'start a tokyo massacre' when they are not actually gonna do so? why do they say things they are not going to do? are they lying? was their hatred towards the japanese fake? are they just pretending to be 'patroits'?

I m afraid you got me wrong, I mean I dislike them, so I have the right no to do something with them. I dislike them, it's a simple fact. Did I make myself clear? Would you force me to like them?

As for the ppl wanna bash every Japanese and blah blah, you can just ask them why they wanna do so, I have no right to represent them either, meanwhile, you shouldn't ask the whole Chinese nation being responsible for the few ppl's stupid words.

I do enjoy our communications, but I'll stop anytime if ppl consider that our discussions are meaningless.

[39degN]

pazu, no matter what different points we are holding, we are friends, if you considered me as one of yours.

[holyman]

Then you must be either very dumb or stupid. Poor guy.

read the next line and take it easy man, just a sarcastic remark.

[holyman]

I must admit you are so intelligent and so familiar with Chinese culture, you even know 借刀杀人 and 推诿扯皮 , do your friends commission you represent them to post opinions? You can only represent yourself, not everyone else. You can't shuffle off responsibilities onto other people. once you talk about it, you have to get responsible for it, can I just simply said my points are of my friends?

wrong reasoning again, there is no representation here. to explain a certain point of view doesnt mean in support of one. if somebody ask does japanese hate chinese and why, then i can say from what i knew, or according to japanese who told me, the bad habits that chinese had is a nightmare to them. but whether i agree to that, thats another thing. a simple example would be, if u ask why a particular pickpocket goes around stealing, i can say thats becos he's short of cash, he's lazy to find a proper job, whatever, as he told me. i agree to him or not, another story. same thing with the shanghainese. but the difference here is, i am not totally dismissing the japanese point of view, cos the bad habits or other things japanese sees as nightmare does exist, among considerable number of chinese. and for personal reasons i cannot disagree with them totally, i myself had seen and encountered these multiple times. but neither am i applying it to all chinese.

I m afraid you got me wrong, I mean I dislike them, so I have the right no to do something with them.... meanwhile, you shouldn't ask the whole Chinese nation being responsible for the few ppl's stupid words.

the reasons why u dislike a few or a large number of them can be understood, like if they did something bad or their general image is no good. but to dislike all without a good reason is biasness and being rascist.

for the second part good, hope u'll apply these to the japanese as well.

[holyman]

regarding zuozongtang, i quote the below from 《从鸦片战争到五四运动。上册。各少数民族的群众起义的失败》：

。。。为了剿灭入陕的太平军、捻军和陕、甘的起义回民，清朝政府在几年中调动了不少军队到西北地区，由于征战无功而撤换更替了不少将领和督抚。到了同治六年（1867年），镇压太平天国有功的左宗棠被任为陕甘总督。但这时西捻还在陕西活动，左宗棠仍首先集中力量剿捻，为追逐西捻渡河到山西。在捻军全部消灭以后，他于同治七年（1868年）十月从西安出发，用全力分路进剿起义的回民。左宗棠以湘军大将刘松山担任北路的军事，由绥德入宁夏，而他自己率部由陕西进入甘肃的泾川、平凉，逐步消灭省城兰州附近的各股回军。针对上述回民起义的弱点，左宗棠采取了所谓“先抚后杀”的恶毒策略，即先诱降那些动摇的头头，然后对群众大肆屠杀，往往连已降的头头一起杀掉。在北路，宁夏的那个自称为“总大阿訇”的马化龙在同治九年（1870年）请降。这时刘松山已经战死，接替他的职位的是他的侄儿刘锦棠。此人由残酷地镇压回民而发迹。他虽然接受了马化龙的投诚，但仍然杀死了他和他的家族以及他家里的雇工，并且平毁了这一带回民所居的堡寨。左宗棠于同治十一年（1872年）进入甘肃的省城兰州，并于同年冬天派刘锦棠荡平了现在属于青海省的西宁、大通一带的回军。这时各股回军的头子纷纷请降。最后，左宗棠出兵河西走廊。占领肃州（酒泉）的马文禄在同治十二年（1873年）九月也请降，左宗棠口头上允许缴械投降，但还是把马文禄等首领九人和当地的六千多回民杀掉了。他向朝廷奏报他进城时的情形说：“环视尸骸枕藉，即老弱妇女，亦颇不免。”①在许多本来回民聚居的地区，左宗棠进行了残酷的杀戮后，把余下的回民分散迁移到别的地方。

　　左宗棠用兵陕、甘，受害的不仅是回民。当时他所对付的还有所谓“土匪”，那其实是流离失所的穷苦汉民。左宗棠奏报中承认：“有无家可归，流而为匪者，有因官军诛求无厌，无所控诉，激而为匪者。”他又说：“只分良莠，不论汉回，为久远之规，制贼之本。”②这就是说，不论汉回，只要是封建统治者看来是“莠民”的，都要诛杀。左宗棠对土匪也采取招抚的办法。有些豪强恶霸就乘机收容贫苦的群众，组成队伍，形成自己的实力，向居民进行勒索劫掠，又借以求得招抚，为自己打开升官的门径。董福祥就是这样的一个角色。他本是盘踞在花马池（宁夏的盐池）的一个土匪头子，受招抚后追随左宗棠，后来成了在甘肃残害压迫汉、回人民的一个军阀。

左宗棠在同治八年（1869年）叙述甘肃东部的情形说：“平、庆、泾、固（平凉、庆阳、泾川、固原）之间，千里荒芜，弥望白骨黄茅，炊烟断绝，被祸之惨，实为天下所无。”①《平定关陇纪略》一书中说：“死者既暴骨如莽，生者复转徙之他。蝗旱继之，疠疫又继之，浩劫之余，孑遗有几？方是时，千里萧条，弥望焦土”②。这些灾难是由封建统治者的反动民族政策造成的，左宗棠的军队和其他历年以回、汉人民为敌的官军是直接造成这些灾难的凶手。

the part in red is zuo zong tang's own words, 'the thousand (chinese) miles btw pingliang, qingyang, jingyuan, guyuan are left barren, white bones and yellow grass mixed together, one can see no chimney smoke at all. the suffering they had cannot be seen anywhere else.' in 《平定关陇纪略》it says, 'the death were left to rot on the plains, the survivors escaped/moved to other places. locust and plague followed after that. after going thru all these disasters, how many can survive? at that time, there's no activities in a thousand (chinese) miles, all that one can see is scorched lands. (a chinese mile is roughly 1/3 miles. here it means area spanning 300 miles across)

besides the 《平定关陇纪略》mentioned above in red, u can check other readings like《钦定兰州纪略》、《循化志》、《钦定石峰堡纪略》、《国朝甘肃再征叛国记》、《滇乱纪略》、《钦定云南回匪纪略》、《清咸同间云南回变纪闻》、《龙蛇泪痕》、《滇垣十四年大祸记》、《秦陇回务纪略》、《钦定平定陕甘新疆回匪方略》、《平回纪略》

these are written from the qing dynasty point of view. books from the xinjiang or northweatern muslims point of view u probably cant see any now. but u can still read from the official viewpoint now, like books from the famous historian mr. bai yishou(白彝寿).

edit: forget to add, regarding the number of deaths, nanking was 300k according to official statements, up to 500k according to unofficial ones. for mr zuo zong tang, i can safely say its way much more than any of these two, who knows it might even be equal to their total. i think in bai yishou's writings there is an estimation on the number of 'huihui' before and after zuo's campaign. do some simple maths and u can get a general picture of what have happened. i can give u a rough idea. for zuo's northwest campaigns, roughly 90% of the 1.6mil 'huihui' in shannxi and gansu province were wipeout, not including those in xinjiang and han chinese in all these areas.

[holyman]

When a nation's queen has been raped by japanese, some ppl there still stand on the side of pro Japanese, except traitors I have no ideas to describe them. As for the princess thing, we called this political, not slaughter.

u read too little. please check it out in 《新唐书》、《新五代史》、《宋史》or 《明史》. there are numerous records on this, sometimes individual actions, sometimes secretly allowed to maintain the moral of the troops. do u believed that the chinese expanded its territory so much without all doing these? and yes, traitors they are, like the whole chinese population who eventually bow to manchurian aggressors.

[39degN]

the reasons why u dislike a few or a large number of them can be understood, like if they did something bad or their general image is no good. but to dislike all without a good reason is biasness and being rascist.

这么说我也没有任何观点,我说的都是我朋友说的(看我这人多没主见啊),我也是转述,而且PARTIALLY AGREE,因为当初的日本人有些至今还活着,而且不肯认输,甚至还讽刺中国如果不是有美国原子弹爆炸,他们不会失败. 还有他们种种变态的生活习惯,不用我说你也知道是什么. 当然他们有那么做的自由, 我(的朋友们)也有鄙视他们的自由. 最后补充, 我指的是一小部分日本人.现在您满意了没有?

regarding zuozongtang, i quote the below from 《从鸦片战争到五四运动。上册。各少数民族的群众起义的失败》：

well, for the first time in your posting hitory, you quoted evidences from communist Chinese gov's history book. But if my memory serves me correctly, you've despised such kind of books. Is that a surprise to CCP?

Sadly as everyone knows CCP stands on the site of 太平军、捻军(Taiping Rebellion, Nian Rebellion), so, it's a pity, the evidence wouldn't be counted this time.

As for the part of：：“平、庆、泾、固（平凉、庆阳、泾川、固原）之间，千里荒芜，弥望白骨黄茅，炊烟断绝，被祸之惨，实为天下所无。”①《平定关陇纪略》一书中说：“死者既暴骨如莽，生者复转徙之他。蝗旱继之，疠疫又继之，浩劫之余，孑遗有几？方是时，千里萧条，弥望焦土”②。

I believe it's not describing his own action's results if he is not an idiot.

u read too little. please check it out in 《新唐书》、《新五代史》、《宋史》or 《明史》.

Yes, I will do that, if:

1, I m majoring in history

2, i got retired right now.

do u believed that the chinese expanded its territory so much without all doing these?

Yes, we did, and we apologize for this if you want.

and yes, traitors they are, like the whole chinese population who eventually bow to manchurian aggressors.

What's the result there? Manchurian even lost their language after all. and anyway, we are Chinese. No matter what conflict we have had, 兄弟阋于墙，外御其侮 Do you have any dissidence about this? Or 你想挑拨我们的民族感情吗？

呵呵，不跟你抬杠了，还是做点有意义的事去吧，哥们。