How to teach the tones of Mandarin

[here2learn]

They are not necessarily so much different. Many Americans have retroflex R.

What? huh? NORTH americans?

who what where when why?

I've never heard americans say any english word with a "chinese R", in fact it's one of the biggest differences; it's even made fun of in movies. In my chinese class, going around the class hearing each person practice saying 日本， it was the student's worst problem. I was so proud when the teacher said mine was the best.

Can you give some examples of English words that highlight that R? I'm willing to concede, but I really can't think of ever hearing it. Sorry, maybe we should start a new thread about it.

[Prase]

Here2learn: http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?p=144743#post144743

[Tinov]

Thank you all for your input.

TInov

[Meng Lelan]

Yeah, but they can be habit forming if you're not careful. When I started learning, I used to do similar movements with my head until someone (Chinese) pointed out how silly it looked.

imron's comment above reminds me of the time I observed a class for the deaf in the US. The teacher slightly bobbed forward to stress the syllable of each word she was teaching. I noticed the deaf students were doing the same thing. It looked silly. I knew right then I would never teach that way, whether teaching English to the deaf or Chinese to the normally hearing.

[flameproof]

imron's comment above reminds me of the time I observed a class for the deaf in the US. The teacher slightly bobbed forward to stress the syllable of each word she was teaching. I noticed the deaf students were doing the same thing. It looked silly. I knew right then I would never teach that way, whether teaching English to the deaf or Chinese to the normally hearing.

You need to teach in a way that students can remember. Having had 100 hours of lessens and not being able to talk looks silly too.

Using different methods should be encouraged, not discouraged. Different people have different ways processing information, a good teacher must acknowledge that and have a range of methods. Just a good teacher though, the others don't need to bother.

[stephanhodges]

I'd like to add something a little different.

Keep in mind what you teach is for "learning" the tones at the beginning.

I believe that in the long run, if the student continuously things "it's this syllable with that tone", their brain will always have the habit of FIRST hearing a toneless syllable, and then applying the tone.

So, from the beginning, repeatedly mention alternate strategies to use once they are hearing tones well, etc.

When I switched to telling myself that every syllable was just "different", not the same with different tones, my audible memory improved much more rapidly.

Now, often I can say it, but have to stop and run through the 4 tones with the syllable to figure out what tone it is. Since I see many Chinese people also do it this way, I am encouraged that I've found a way that works, and mimics (at least one of) the natural ways that the language is learned.

[Danman]

I agree with flameproof. Coming back to the study of Mandarin after an unfortunately long break, I opted for a gentle re-introduction in the form of the Michel Thomas Foundation Mandarin course. This teaches tones by superimposing colour-coded finger movements over pinyin. As a multi-modal learner I appreciate the colour code, but the finger-waving did not work for me at all. Barely perceptible head movements - much derided though this has been in this thread and elsewhere - is my spontaneous response. Having worked through the course I now ‘see’ pinyin with coloured tones over the syllables and this is accompanied by a sort of ‘internal’ head movement ( usually in the right direction!) Don’t know if the good Dr Goodman, whose pleasant voice guides you through the course, would approve of my take on his method, but it seems to help me remember.

[LaoLiang]

For an adult to learn tones I'd suggest that they listen to their own voice; that is use the same technique as in a media lab: repeat after a recording and loop it back to the head phones. There should also be an option to record oneself and then listen to it again.

[imron]

Audacity allows you to do just that.

[here2learn]

I'd like to propose a slightly more extreme idea I've thought of recently while walking down the street... don't even SPEAK as if there are words that "sound the same but with different tones". Let's change our vocabulary to reflect that if you say a word with the wrong tone, it's not partially right, it's the WRONG WORD.

EXAMPLE:

Student should say "noodles" in chinese....

Student: "mian1"

Teacher: "wrong tone"

NO NO NO NO NO!

Student: "mian1"

Teacher: "nope."

YES YES YES YES YES!

If a student learning english says "poodle", do you say, "yes, but with the wrong first letter"...? Not usually, we'd just say "no...." or maybe "close...." and draw a poodle on the board and the student will giggle and remember next time. But we are clear that it's NOT the right word.

Seriously, I had to change my way of thinking - when you learn a word, the tone is part of it, not something extra. If the tone is wrong, it's not the right word, period.

It's not half-right, it's wrong.

Also,

You know those exercises where we're supposed to repeat this:

ma1 ma2 ma3 ma4

tian1 tian2 tian3 tian4

shuo1 shuo2 shuo3 shuo4

BAN THEM FOREVER PLEASE!

Ok, maybe do them the first day of class, ONCE if you must, just enough so everyone can hear the difference and what you mean when you say "tone". For me, it just jumbles up all the tones together and makes it more difficult to remember which was which for a particular word, like.... I shouldn't have heard them all together like that.

[imron]

I'd like to propose a slightly more extreme idea I've thought of recently while walking down the street

You'll be happy to know that this is not an extreme idea, and is something most people with a good grasp of tones will agree with.

[stephanhodges]

YES, one needs to be honest with themselves, and decide they are different, rather than being "in denial"

Personally, to me it doesn't matter what the external teacher says, it's what you personally believe.

What I mean is that once I switched to believing that "wrong tones" just meant "wrong word", instead of "same word + different tones", my memory of correct pronunciation improved almost overnight.

I believe that IF you tell yourself it's the "same word, but different tones" (same as saying "same syllable/sound structure/sounds like/etc") then your brain will do it's very best to keep all those "same word" constucts together, with memory, association, etc.

We don't want that!