Sentences can be made without a verb?

[James Garrison]

Thats correct in some instances, right?

1 )他很高的.

2 )我饿了

3) 我很高兴!

In #2, 了 would be a particle and not a verb since it indicates a change in state.

Is that about right?

[Quest]

verb adjectives.

[James Garrison]

Okay, I see. so, in this sentence

他很高.

高 represents "the act of being tall." We can't draw a strict line between adjectives

and verbs like we would in English. Thats easy enough, though I don't know whether I should be relieved or frightened by this new knowledge.

[Lu]

高 means 'to be tall', as 餓 means 'to be hungry' and 好 'to be good'. What Quest said, verb adjectives. Don't be frightened, they don't bite :-)

That being said, I think you can actually make sentences without the verb, where the verb is just implied, for example 我荷蘭人 'I am Dutch'.

[HashiriKata]

We can't draw a strict line between adjectives and verbs like we would in English. Thats easy enough, though I don't know whether I should be relieved or frightened by this new knowledge.

You should be very happy with the knowledge that English is just one of the languages and that the majority of languages don't behave like English.

[zozzen]

是 and verb-to-be aren't exactly the same concept, but you can assume that it's often "omitted" in Chinese idiomatically.

他 (是) 餓了.

他 (是)很高.

他 (是) 很高興.

In question form, we may also say:

你餓了沒? / 你是不是餓了?

他很高嗎? / 他是不是很高?

他很高興嗎? / 他是不是很高興?

Both question forms are also common.

[HashiriKata]

是 and verb-to-be aren't exactly the same concept, but you can assume that it's often "omitted" in Chinese idiomatically.

It should be more correct to say that 是 is "added" to the sentences, instead of "omitted" from them. That is to say (take your examples):

他 是 餓了.

他 是很高.

他 是 很高興.

are derived from:

他餓了.

他很高.

他很高興.

Otherwise, you'd have a hard time explaining sentences such as:

我是不去。

他是不是走了？

我是在家看书。

我不是不喜欢你。。。

(The 是 in Chinese can be added to sentences for emphasis, contrast, etc...)

[Quest]

他是很高. is not complete, one would need either a 的 or a "but".

[Mugi]

That being said, I think you can actually make sentences without the verb, where the verb is just implied, for example 我荷蘭人 'I am Dutch'.

In speech, yes; in writing, no.

他是餓了. 他是很高. 他是很高興.

I don't believe any of these are grammatically correct as stand alone statements... There is no "assumed" yet "omitted" 是 in 他餓了, 他很高, 他很高興 etc. You're forcing English grammar onto Chinese in order to understand it from an English perspective. The quoted utterances may be grammatically correct in other situations with context, but not as stand alone statements. Note also that the grammar of 他餓了 and 他很高 is fundamentally different. Here, 餓 is simply a verb, rather than a "verb adjective" (cf: 他走了, 他吃了, 他睡覺了).

[zozzen]

我荷蘭人 'I am Dutch'.

In speech, yes; in writing, no.

Even in speech, "我荷蘭人" sounds awkward to native ears. We sometimes say "咱們中國人要怎樣怎樣...." but it refers to "We, as Chinese people, must blah blah blah blah" .

In this case, "是" has to be added before a noun. I can't think of any situation that "是" can be omitted before a noun when we want to say "I'm [noun]", maybe I only miss it.

[zozzen]

他是饿了. 他是很高. 他是很高兴.

I don't believe any of these are grammatically correct as stand alone statements

It depends. All the following sentences sound native to Chinese, but their structure is what you described as "grammatically incorrect". let's figure out the grammar rule behind it.

"你原谅他吧, 他是冲动了一点, 但他没有恶意的."

"你知道吗? 你是最好的." (famous dialogue in Stephen Chow's movie)

"她是太好胜了."

"他就是牛!"

"甚么是好, 甚么是坏, 谁说得准"

"某某同志是好的, 他的用心也是好的, 但他的表现方式是错误的." ( 活像老毛年代的话)

[Lu]

"你原谅他吧, 他是冲动了一点, 但他没有恶意的."

"某某同志是好的, 他的用心也是好的, 但他的表现方式是错误的."

This is the 是...但... construction, it is actually grammatically correct. 'It is true that xxx, but yyy.'

"你知道吗? 你是最好的." (famous dialogue in Stephen Chow's movie)

"他就是牛!"

This is using 是 for emphasis: somebody else might disagree, but he is actually very 牛/ you are really the best.

Also, 你是最好的 is using 是...的, also a correct grammatical pattern.

"甚么是好, 甚么是坏, 谁说得准"

I think this one becomes incorrect when you leave out the 是, but I can't explain why.

Even in speech, "我荷蘭人" sounds awkward to native ears.

I'm not a native speaker, so who am I to disagree, but still I disagree. It is very 口語, and you can't always use it, but sometimes you can.

[HashiriKata]

There are legitimate cases where 是 is not needed before a noun (ie, a nominal predicate):

你几岁了？

今天星期三。

这双鞋八十块。

(Of course, one can say 是 is omitted in these sentences but the counter argument is equally strong.)

[zozzen]

1. "你原谅他吧, 他是冲动了一点, 但他没有恶意的."

"某某同志是好的, 他的用心也是好的, 但他的表现方式是错误的."

This is the 是...但... construction, it is actually grammatically correct. 'It is true that xxx, but yyy.'

2. "你知道吗? 你是最好的." (famous dialogue in Stephen Chow's movie)

"他就是牛!"

This is using 是 for emphasis: somebody else might disagree, but he is actually very 牛/ you are really the best.

Also, 你是最好的 is using 是...的, also a correct grammatical pattern.

3. "甚么是好, 甚么是坏, 谁说得准"

I think this one becomes incorrect when you leave out the 是, but I can't explain why.

4. "我荷蘭人"

I'm not a native speaker, so who am I to disagree, but still I disagree. It is very 口語, and you can't always use it, but sometimes you can.

Though I'm almost a native Chinese speaker (with some confusion in s/sh, x/q/c all the time only), i don't know much about Chinese grammar rule. The usage of "是" is very interesting to me, I can tell what's native and what's bad Chinese, but i can't tell the rule behind it.

Hey, is there Chinese speaker here? Please come and share your view.

1. Is there "是.... 但" in Chinese structure where "是” can't be omitted? I don't think so.

”我很醜，但我很善良” In this sentence, we don't need "是”, but it's 100% native.

2. 是 seems not to be ONLY for emphasis here. If that were just for emphasis, we'd say "他牛" when we didn't need emphasis. But "他牛” isn't Chinese.

3. Yes, in this sentence we can't take "是” out. But we can also say ”哪個人好，哪個人壞，我難道不懂分嗎？. This sounds native.

4. I can't think of any situation that we can say "我荷蘭人" to express "I'm Dutch", even in very informal conversation. When you are asked where you come from, you can say "荷蘭”、"荷蘭人", or ”我是荷蘭人". "是" can't be omitted in this situation.

[jade-]

Originally Posted by zozzen:

Though I'm almost a native Chinese speaker (with some confusion in s/sh, x/q/c all the time only), i don't know much about Chinese grammar rule. The usage of "是" is very interesting to me, I can tell what's native and what's bad Chinese, but i can't tell the rule behind it.

Hey, is there Chinese speaker here? Please come and share your view.

I am not sure why you said “I'm almost a native Chinese speaker”? You are either a native speaker or a non-native speaker, how does this “almost” part work? There are a lot of native speakers who can not distinguish zh ch sh from z c s, so confusion on these can not prevent you from being a native speaker. But I don’t understand how you confuse x and q? They are pronounced quite differently.

Jokes aside, I am a native speaker, but not sure what you guys are arguing about here?

Originally Posted by zozzen:

4. I can't think of any situation that we can say "我荷蘭人" to express "I'm Dutch", even in very informal conversation.

Yes, you can say "我荷蘭人" to express "I'm a Dutch" during a conversation. For example:

甲：我都不知道，原来你不是德国人啊。

乙：我荷兰人。-- "是" can be omitted here

This is especially true when speaking on the phone:

甲：喂？

乙：喂，我小王啊。-- "是" is omitted here

[Quest]

We sometimes say "咱們中國人要怎樣怎樣...." but it refers to "We, as Chinese people, must blah blah blah blah" .

I think more often it's expressed as "We Chinese...."

[Mugi]

zozzen, unfortunately none of your examples matches the initial examples in grammar, so in fact I wouldn't define any of your examples as gramatically incorrect. Where we essentially had only two separate grammar patterns (although the original question was only for one), you've now introduced 5 new ones!! (Your second and last examples represent the same grammatical pattern.) While they may look similar, all of them actually differ from the original examples. And I'm afraid I don't have the energy at the moment to go into the whys and wherefores.

[zozzen]

frankly, i'm full of energy but i admit that i don't know how to explain when "是" can be omitted, when it can't be.

The aim of mentioning many sentence structures that use "是" is to find out the rule about when "是" can't be omitted, and when it can be. The rule seemed to be arbitrary and there's always exception on each pattern.

I begin to come to a pessimistic conclusion that that's all about idiomatic usage. If that's the case, good luck to all learners. You have to remember all these and that seems to be very difficult for non-native speakers to do it.

[Lu]

Native speakers don't need to know the rules, since they already speak the language. Grammar rules are the most useful for people who are learning the language, and need some guidelines on what is and what isn't correct. So, zozzen, don't worry that you don't know the whys. If you are interested, you could find a Mandarin grammar book. It's not all idiomatic, fortunately, there are rules.

但 can be used without 是, just like 'but' in English. It can also be used in the 是...但... construction. Two different ways of usage.

他牛 is wrong (btw does this use 牛 as a noun or as an adjective?), just like *她高=She's tall or *我窮=I'm poor is wrong. You need a 很 or something similar. The explanation is something like: 高 does not just mean 'tall'. It means 'to be taller'. 她高 can be the answer to the question 'who of you is taller?', and then it means 'She's the taller one.' But if you would encounter a tall woman in the street, you can say 她很高 or 她好高 or 她比你高 but not *她高.

I hope that makes sense. Probably not.

And thank you jade for an example of 我荷蘭人.

[jade-]

Lu, you are welcome.

zozzen, I agree with Lu, we native speakers don’t know as many grammar rules as you do (that is why I don’t know what you are arguing about), we only know how to speak the language.

The rule of thumb is you follow the grammar rules so your speaking and writing can be and will be understood. The more you practice the language (listening, speaking, reading and writing), the more you will grasp the language. Then you will know when to omit the "是", and when not to. If your grammar book says not to omit the "是", don’t omit it now. Omit it only when you are sure it is right. E.g. if you don’t feel it is right, don’t say 我荷兰人，always say 我是荷兰人。

Unfortunately, grammar rules in a language are not like these in rocket science, they don't cover everything, and are arbitrary sometimes. I had the same feeling as you are having now in my English study. But don’t be discouraged and pessimistic, keep practicing and one day you will surprise yourself that you omit the "是" during your speaking as it comes out naturally. I have been helped by many many native speakers during my English study, this is the main reason I am here, I would like to help people to learn Chinese. If my words discourage you from learning Chinese, I apologize since it is not my original goal.