多少 duo1shao5 vs. duo1shao3

[Luobot]

I noticed that CEDICT has the following two entries for 多少

(1) 多少 duo1shao5 / duōshao = how much; how many; which (number); as much as

(2) 多少 duo1shao3 / duōshǎo = number; amount; somewhat

Are there really two different definitions or usages for 多少 depending on the tone of 少 ?

[skylee]

I would also be interested in knowing people's views on duo1 shao3 vs duo2 shao3.

[Dengxiaomai]

The difference between the duo1shao5 and duo1shao3 seems to be negligible because they both mean how many, how much, etc...

There is also another way of saying 多少 by pronoucing it duo2shao3. In this case it means 这么少 - very few, very little. 这里的人多少 - There are very few people here.

Hope this helps.

Max

[roddy]

CEDICT looks right to me and tallies with what both Pleco's dictionaries have. duōshao for the most familiar 'how much / how many' usage. Ie:

[ADSO]谁是世界上最富有的人?他有多少亿美元？[/ADSO]

and duōshǎo for the still not exactly uncommon 'somewhat', 'to an extent'

[ADSO]这个在技术上不是问题，但他还是多少有点紧张。[/ADSO]

I wouldn't say that's a negligible difference but I can see how they could be confused.

The duo2 thing rings a bell, have we discussed it before? I've never noticed it, but I'm often oblivious to these things. Certainly never seen it in any textbooks or dictionaries, for what that's worth.

Edit: Yes, it's come up before in 2004 and 2005.

Edit edit: And kudos to Adsotrans for being able to pick up on that difference.

[randall_flagg]

I'm hearing a lot of 多钱 instead of 多少钱 around me, and I caught myself saying it a few weeks ago.

Example：(pointing at the little stuffed animal 七仔）这多钱啊？

[muyongshi]

I would also be interested in knowing people's views on duo1 shao3 vs duo2 shao3.

I was looking through the links that Roddy posted and nothing was ringing a bell to a high degree until I hit 多么 and that's when it clicked. I hear it in this context as a second tone and then it had a nice domino effect and the 多漂亮 also had a little bit of an 影响 on hearing it second tone but not nearly as much as 多么.

I'm hearing a lot of 多钱 instead of 多少钱 around me, and I caught myself saying it a few weeks ago.

Well don't worry about catching yourself saying it as it's okay to say and is "standard". Not that many people in Sichuan understand it though. I had a teacher complaining up the wazzu (she's from Xian) about how Sichuan people just don't understand some simple standard phrases and the one she was having problems with was 多钱

[Luobot]

@Roddy

Thanks for the example sentences. Very Helpful! ;)

[kudra]

(1) 多少 duo1shao5 / duōshao = how much; how many; which (number); as much as

(2) 多少 duo1shao3 / duōshǎo = number; amount; somewhat

"number, amount" of (2)seems to be a noun, while (1) seems to be something else.

This reminds me of the noun "size", da4xiao3. It could be that for nouns of this type, which use the two opposite adjectives to make the noun that the adjectives describe, the full tones are used. I seem to remember reading about this somewhere, but I'm not sure, so you native speaker/linguists out there feel free to correct me.

[Luobot]

two opposite adjectives to make the noun that the adjectives describe ...

Words comprised of characters with opposite meanings would make an interesting vocabulary list to study. Do you know of a list of such words somewhere?

... the full tones are used

How about where the characters are reduplicated, as in: [ADSO]大大小小[/ADSO].

[jade-]

Orignally posted by Luobot:

I noticed that CEDICT has the following two entries for 多少

(1) 多少 duo1shao5 / duōshao = how much; how many; which (number); as much as

(2) 多少 duo1shao3 / duōshǎo = number; amount; somewhat

Are there really two different definitions or usages for 多少 depending on the tone of 少 ?

I really don’t think this is the case. I say what I know: we Beijingers intend to put light tone on “shao” when we ask how much or how many, it is more or less a dialect/accent, there is no good reason for doing it.

duo1shao3 / duōshǎo is correct pronunciation and formally used.

[L-F-J]

I'm hearing a lot of 多钱 instead of 多少钱 around me, and I caught myself saying it a few weeks ago.

Example：(pointing at the little stuffed animal 七仔）这多钱啊？

i think this is just lazy talk. sometimes it'll come out as kinda "duo'ao qian" skipping over the middle word. i find that very clear in your example sentence there. "这多钱啊?" is really fast and informal. lazy talk.

similar to saying in english "where ya gonna go?". but in chinese when you skip over syllables you leave out whole characters. but its still understandable. and even in the english sentence "are" is skipped over by there "r" sound in "where", seemingly left out.

[muyongshi]

i think this is just lazy talk.

No it's considered standard. The 少 is actually 省略ed not just skipping a syllable.

[L-F-J]

same thing isnt it? leaving out a syllable is skipping it. didnt know it was considered standard.

i've heard 'em say "duo'ao qian" before.

[muyongshi]

same thing isnt it? leaving out a syllable is skipping it.

No it's different because I said that 少 the WHOLE word is omitted. It's not skipping it or "leaving it out" due to laziness, it is a formal shortening, an omitted word. BIG difference.

Laziness is where a syllable is dropped as you originally said.

And do understand that 省略 is an acceptable omission not just a skipping.

[Mugi]

From the 现代汉语词典, less some examples:

多少 duōshǎo (1) 指数量词的大小: ～不等, 长短不齐。 (2) 或多或少: 历史上每一次农民起义, 都～推动了社会生产力的发展。 (3) 稍微: 一立秋, 天气～有点凉意了。

多少 duōshao 疑问代词 (1) 问数量: 这一班有～人? (2) 表示不定的数量: 我知道～说～。

As for 多钱, I don't know about it being "standard" so much as perhaps being "common". I doubt you you'll find it in print very often; certainly not in a textbook. In Beijing, 多少duōshao is almost always 多儿 duōr, especially in the phrase 多少钱. It is clearly audible, and appears as 多儿 in popular literature or in academic papers dealing with 北京话的儿化音. Don't know what happens to the 少 in other Mandarin speaking areas, although I would be surprised if it were a legitimate omission as muyongshi has asserted. 多钱 is certainly not an acceptable substitute for 多少钱 in Modern Standard Chinese (普通话), although it could be in a given local dialect. If it is acceptable in a given local dialect, then it is likely to be the result of an evolution from duōshao qián to duō'ao/duōr qián to duō qián.

[L-F-J]

speaking of beijinghua, it happens a lot. i hear them say 二十多岁 coming out sounding like 二儿多岁 becomes everything is kind of slurred.

[carlo]

Phonetically, Mandarin /r/ is basically a voiced version of the voiceless /sh/, so it's not surprising that in fast speech, /sh/ becomes /r/.

[L-F-J]

what?

[roddy]

Slightly less linguistically:

Your tongue, lips, all the other bits of your mouth, should be in the same place for both /r/ and /sh/ However, with /r/ your vocal chords vibrate, with /sh/ they don't. If you try putting your fingers on your throat just below the adam's apple (sorry ladies) you should be able to feel the difference. The first similar difference that comes to mind in English is between the initial 'th' sounds in thumb and this - your mouth is making all the same shapes, the difference is in the vocal chords.

[L-F-J]

that makes sense, but is it "faster" to voice a sound than not to voice it?

anyway, on the topic of 多钱 being a standard omission of 少, i've not heard this. it always sounds as if there is a syllable skipped over there. like 多儿钱. i've never heard it clearly and distinctively "duo qian".